Let's Talk About Sects

In the last episode of season 5, we looked into a Boulder, Colorado community then known as Divine Madness and led by Marc Tizer, usually referred to as 'Yo'. Its members were recognised for some amazing results in ultramarathons. At the time of researching that episode, updates about the current status of the group were hard to come by.

Deru Youmans came across a listing for 'The Retreat' in the Gila National Forest on the World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms (WWOOF) website, and it sounded amazing. Their recent experience in this remote community had them very concerned for others who might come across a similar listing in the future.

Full episode page here. You can support us on Patreon or with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Thanks to Audio-Technica, presenting partner for season 6 of Let's Talk About Sects.

Links:

• Teachings of Value — website for The Retreat and other current activities of Marc Tizer's group once known as Divine Madness
• Scenic, secluded farm in the Gila National Forest — WWOOF listing for The Retreat
• Inner Journeys Wilderness Camps — Summer overnight camps for girls at The Retreat
• Highland Intentional Community — Foundation for Intentional Community listing for the group's Boulder, Colorado farm
• A Running Club Is 100 Miles Outside of the Mainstream — by Jere Longman, The New York Times, 28 July 1997

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

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Journalist Emma Lehman is the creator of the independent podcast Gooned, which dives into the Troubled Teen Industry or TTI – a network of for-profit congregate care facilities for youth ranging from wilderness programs to therapeutic boarding schools. In the podcast, Emma interviews survivors, parents, staff members, experts and activists.

Across the USA, young people are funnelled into this $23 billion industry not only by their caregivers but by government agencies. While these places advertise themselves as solutions to everything from troublesome conduct to mental illness, Emma shares through Gooned that they are ground zero for emotional, physical, and psychological abuse with lasting traumatic impacts on the teens they say they serve. And a number of the dubious and damaging methods many of them use can draw a straight line to a cult.

Full episode page here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Thanks to Audio-Technica, presenting partner for season 6 of Let's Talk About Sects.

Links:

• Gooned — podcast, website and TikTok
• Unsilenced — US non profit organisation that serves past, present, and future victims of institutional child abuse
• Emma Lehman — Emma's website where you can find out more about her work

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Harry Palmer created Avatar after his presidency of the Church of Scientology's Elmira Mission ended in the mid-1980s, as a result of legal proceedings around trademark infringement. Avatar says that it aims to create an 'enlightened planetary consciousness' or EPC through its courses, which are expensive and numerous. Former students say they have been left with massive debts as a result of their attendance.

Full research sources listed here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now, and you can order Joe Gould's LTAS soundtrack album here.

With thanks to Audio-Technica, presenting partner for season 6 of Let's Talk About Sects. Head here to enter our competition to win a pair of ATH-SQ1TW Wireless Earbuds!

Links:

• Who is Harry Palmer? — archived founder bio on former Avatar website, May 2006
• Living Deliberately: The Discovery and Development of Avatar — by Harry Palmer, Star’s Edge International, 1994
• Harry Palmer’s Scientology Mission, Star’s Edge, and Avatar — special report series by Lisa Bennett, Elmira Star-Gazette, 2-7 February 1988
• We'd like to welcome you to 'enlightenment' — by Russell Blackstock, NZ Herald, 17 August 2014
• Interview with Margie - Ex-Scientology / Avatar | The Origins of the Avatar Course - Part 1 and Part 2 — Avatar Uncovered YouTube channel, 15 & 19 January 2018
• Avatar Uncovered — website maintained by former Avatar Master Amanda Reed, accessed January 2024
• An Interview With Harry Palmer — by Matt Ding, HP Magazine, 1996, interview excerpt archived from About Harry Palmer website
• Avatar: Scientology-style sect causes concern in Netherlands — by Anna Holligan, BBC News, 31 March 2018

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thomas Parsons joined the Twelve Tribes community in Hiddenite, North Carolina in April 2019, and left in November 2021. With Hiddenite being the unofficial headquarters of the organisation, he had direct contact with a number of senior leaders of the Tribes. Following last week’s live episode release, this conversation with Thomas provides an interesting insight into some of the more recent developments in the communities, as well as a more recent personal experience there.

Full research sources listed here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Thanks to Audio-Technica, presenting partner for season 6 of Let's Talk About Sects. Use promo code LTAS10 at Audio-Technica’s Australian store for 10% off and to support the show!

Links:

• The Twelve Tribes LTAS episode page with a full list of resources is here
• Cult Information and Family Support (CIFS) — Australian volunteer-run support service
• ICSA (International Cultic Studies Association) — cult info since 1979

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode was recorded live at Woodford Folk Festival on 1 January 2024. Many people in the audience would have come across the Twelve Tribes previously at that very festival, as they used to build a big Common Ground cafe by the lake where tens of thousands of festival-goers ate and drank over the years.

Numerous wonderful people have devoted themselves to the communities and the lifestyle of the Twelve Tribes. Thousands of fantastic individuals and families are truly dedicated to a way of life that in certain respects has a lot to offer. Their positive experiences, however, don’t negate the stories of those who have come out with less positive things to say. And it’s important to understand why there have been numerous stories with similar themes of harm that have come out of this group over the decades since they formed.

Full research sources listed here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Links:

• The Restoration of All Things — a history on the Twelve Tribes’ official website, dated 14 January 2021
• Our Child Training Manual — Twelve Tribes text, 2000
• Châm: The Proverbial Lesson to the Whole World — Twelve Tribes teaching, 19 March 2005
• Châm and Servitude — Twelve Tribes teaching, 19 March 1991
• Homosexuals and Lesbians — Twelve Tribes teaching, 3 July 1990
• Lying — Twelve Tribes teaching, 29 November 1998
• Twelve Tribes Teachings — links to teachings not meant for the public, compiled by the Question 12 Tribes blog, 1977-2008
• Taking Moral Responsibility for Your Children (An Introduction to Effective and Defective Parenting) — Twelve Tribes teaching, 8 July 2004
• Children of the Tribes — by Julia Scheeres, Pacific Standard Magazine, 1 September 2015
• “They are evil”: Ex-Twelve Tribes members describe child abuse, control inside religious cult — by Shelly Bradbury, The Denver Post, 3 March 2022

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Matson Browning is a law enforcement officer who, along with his wife Tawni, spent years undercover infiltrating various hate groups to research and report on the rise of hate crimes and white supremacy in the United States. Together they wrote the book The Hate Next Door: Undercover Within the New Face of White Supremacy, which was published in July 2023.

What others dismissed as fringe groups, Matson quickly recognised as large and interconnected organisations permeating every facet of American society, effectively spreading their dangerous and repugnant rhetoric at unprecedented speeds. Now, with the violent polarisation in our communities and an increase in hate crimes, the threat posed by these toxic organisations feels as acute as ever.

Episode page here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Links:

• Matt & Tawni Browning — Matson and Tawni's website
• The Hate Next Door: Undercover Within the New Face of White Supremacy  — by Matson & Tawni Browning, Sourcebooks, 2023

If you have been personally affected by involvement in a cult or would like to support those who have been, you can find support with, or donate to, Cult Information and Family Support if you’re in Australia, and you can find resources outside of Australia at icsahome.com.

If you or someone you know is in crisis or needs support right now, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia, or find your local crisis centre via the International Association for Suicide Prevention website at iasp.info.

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Yaakov Aharon and Shula Kirovsky’s lives in Sydney’s famous beach suburb of Bondi were lived largely separate from mainstream society, within the Chassidic sect of Chabad. Their families’ lifestyles were a world away from the fashionable bikini and boardshorts-wearing demographics usually associated with the area. Though Yaakov disconnected himself from the sect’s beliefs while he was still quite young, as a teenager he remained keen to join the Israel Defence Forces. Shula disengaged from her religious upbringing at the age of 19, when she was told it was time for her to get married.

Today, both Shula and Yaakov are involved with the Tzedek Collective, an anti-Zionist Jewish group currently attending Sydney’s pro-Palestine rallies every Sunday in Hyde Park and calling for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza. For this episode, they share a selection of their experiences, including some of the things that changed their perspectives from the ideology they were brought up to believe in.

Episode page here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Links:

• Tzedek Collective — website, Facebook, Twitter/X, Instagram
• The Shock Doctrine — by Naomi Klein, Penguin Books, 2007

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rachel Bernstein is an LA-based therapist who has specialized in cult intervention and re-acclimation for over 30 years. She serves on the advisory board of the International Cultic Studies Association and has worked with the Department of Justice providing support to cult survivors. Over the years she has made many media appearances as a cult expert and is also the host of IndoctriNATION, a weekly podcast covering cults, manipulators, and protecting yourself from systems of control, where she has interviewed hundreds of cult survivors, journalists, and experts.

In this episode, Rachel speaks about some of her therapeutic approaches to those who are in cults or have exited them and offers some advice to loved ones on how they may be able to reach someone who has become enmeshed in one of these organisations.

Episode page here. You can support us on Patreon or Acast+, with a one-off donation, or grab some merch. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

Links:

• IndoctriNATION podcast — Rachel Bernstein's podcast
• Rachel Bernstein Therapy — Rachel's website which includes webinars and video lectures
• Now I Know — by Rachel Bernstein, Mascot Books, 2015
• Unique Ways to Reach Out to Loved Ones in Cultic Groups — by Rachel Bernstein, ICSA Today Vol. 12, No. 1, 2021

If you have been personally affected by involvement in a cult or would like to support those who have been, you can find support with, or donate to, Cult Information and Family Support if you’re in Australia, and you can find resources outside of Australia at icsahome.com.

If you or someone you know is in crisis or needs support right now, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia, or find your local crisis centre via the International Association for Suicide Prevention website at iasp.info.

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Xenos was originally set up as a leaderless group that rejected the structures and trappings of mainstream churches. Springing forth from the Jesus Movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s, it focused on meeting in people’s homes and embracing members from the youth counter-cultures. So why does the church’s own website admit to a history that involves cult-like behaviour? And how did it come to face allegations of manipulation and control that have been made by people who joined and left in completely different decades?

Full research sources listed here. You can support us on Patreon. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

With thanks to Audio-Technica, presenting partner for season 6 of Let's Talk About Sects.

If you or someone you know is in crisis or needs support right now, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia, or find your local crisis centre via the International Association for Suicide Prevention.

Links:

• History of Dwell — Dwell website, accessed September 2023
• Coming Home: The Jesus People Movement In the Midwest And Their Attempts To Escape Fundamentalism — by Benjamin Williamson, Doctoral dissertation, University of Dayton, 2021
• An Organic Deception: The Xenos / Dwell Heresy Briefly Examined — by Reverend Rafael D Martinez, Director, Spiritwatch Ministries, undated, accessed September 2023
• Spiritwatch Response — by Dennis McCallum, Dwell website, undated, accessed September 2023
• Xenos critics say church is controlling — by Danae King, The Columbus Dispatch, 26 November 2018
• Dwell Community Church, Xenos Christian Fellowship: exploring how well-meaning individuals cause significant abuse through religious dogmatism — by Katie M. Reinaker, March 2022
• Inside the Megachurch That Has Ex-Members Screaming Cult — by Emily Shugerman, The Daily Beast, 21 May 2022
• Dwell's Response to The Daily Beast — by James M. Rochford, Dwell website, accessed September 2023
• ‘It’s really tragic’: Former members speak out against Columbus church — by Jamie Ostroff, NBC4, 21 February 2022

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Xenos was originally set up as a leaderless group that rejected the structures and trappings of mainstream churches. Springing forth from the Jesus Movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s, it focused on meeting in people’s homes and embracing members from the youth counter-cultures. So why does the church’s own website admit to a history that involves cult-like behaviour? And how did it come to face allegations of manipulation and control that have been made by people who joined and left in completely different decades?

Full research sources listed here. You can support us on Patreon. Sarah Steel's debut book Do As I Say is available on audiobook now.

With thanks to Audio-Technica, presenting partner for season 6 of Let's Talk About Sects.

If you or someone you know is in crisis or needs support right now, please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia, or find your local crisis centre via the International Association for Suicide Prevention.

Links:

• History of Dwell — Dwell website, accessed September 2023
• Coming Home: The Jesus People Movement In the Midwest And Their Attempts To Escape Fundamentalism — by Benjamin Williamson, Doctoral dissertation, University of Dayton, 2021
• An Organic Deception: The Xenos / Dwell Heresy Briefly Examined — by Reverend Rafael D Martinez, Director, Spiritwatch Ministries, undated, accessed September 2023
• Spiritwatch Response — by Dennis McCallum, Dwell website, undated, accessed September 2023
• Xenos critics say church is controlling — by Danae King, The Columbus Dispatch, 26 November 2018
• Dwell Community Church, Xenos Christian Fellowship: exploring how well-meaning individuals cause significant abuse through religious dogmatism — by Katie M. Reinaker, March 2022
• Inside the Megachurch That Has Ex-Members Screaming Cult — by Emily Shugerman, The Daily Beast, 21 May 2022
• Dwell's Response to The Daily Beast — by James M. Rochford, Dwell website, accessed September 2023
• ‘It’s really tragic’: Former members speak out against Columbus church — by Jamie Ostroff, NBC4, 21 February 2022

Subscribe and support the production of this independent podcast, and you can access early + ad-free episodes at https://plus.acast.com/s/lets-talk-about-sects.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.