Real Job Talk

We have a letter! One of our listeners wrote to us with a question. They are stuck with what to do with their golden hancuffs. Their current employer was acquired by a larger company. The company wants them to stay, and has given them a year-long series of bonuses and severance if they stay long enough. But they'd also like to look around to see if there are other opportunities. They don’t know what to do about their bonus package in the job search: can they disclose it? Can they use it as leverage it as part of a job negotiation? It’s a great question, and while we counseled them separately, we share our advice with each of you. What ARE golden handcuffs? They’re a way that a company incentivizes you to stay with them vs leave after a major change. For example, our listener’s company was acquired and they have golden handcuffs that pay them over the next 6 months to stay with the company vs leave for another job. For our listener, they get bonuses every 3 months and then another payment if you stay through the pre-determined transition period. Because our listener is early career, we advised them to stay and get experience with acquisitions and use the bonus package to accumulate a nest egg (assuming they can tolerate it). And we also advised them to not start looking for a new job right away, and instead to take time to make a must-have list, and then start searching 3 months before their last day. Can our listener use their package to get more money? If YOU are applying for jobs, you can’t use a retention program as leverage, but once someone is interested, or if you are being recruited, you may be able to use it. You can say “I’d love to be considered, but I have this retention package and am planning on staying through the end. Can you help keep me whole?” They likely won’t pay it all out, but maybe it will get you a sign-on bonus. Deciding what’s right to do? Look at your must-have list, look at what you want to learn, and as opportunities come your way, make lists of pros and cons guided by your must-have list to balance learning, opportunity, stability, and happiness. Another interesting opportunity may come from the new company, so doing your best post-acquisition and learning about the new company, new ways to do things, and meeting a new network of people is a huge opportunity. Post-acquisition retention is an incredible learning opportunity. You have the opportunity to see how a new company does things and also see new groups and meet new people. Use the opportunity to learn and grow. If you do get approached for a new job, tell them right away that you’re planning on staying through the period of your retention bonus and let them know what it looks like to see if they can help move you earlier. Stress that you’re most interested in learning, growth, and opportunity, and you’re willing to give up money for the right opportunity. If you know you’re talking with a recruiter, write notes and make sure you’re ready for a clear and open conversation. Be confident in who you are, what you’re looking for, and what’s important to you.

Today we’re talking about all things Company-Paid. We're here to help you understand and navigate the world of expenses. Here are the Real Job Talk guidelines for using your company credit card. Guideline 1: Look at your company handbook/rulebook and familiarize yourself with the company’s policies around expenses. There may be limits on hotels, guidelines around flights, and per diems for meals and drinks. If you see friends during time in a new city, that needs to be on your dime - just like when you see friends at home. Your per diem is to cover you because you’re there for work, not for your cocktails with friends. Guideline 2: If it isn’t told to you, ASK! Can you buy yourself a mouse, monitor, or new desk? Ask the recruiter or hiring manager what will be covered by the company. Guideline 3: Convenience is key. You are traveling for WORK, so any bookings you do (hotel, office etc) need to be close to the work you are doing, not to the nearby city you’ve always wanted to visit. If you travel to a city and you want to go sightseeing and learn about it, that's totally fine, but the time you spend as a tourist is on you -- because the company doesn’t need you doing it and it's not part of your job. That said, you can extend your trip with a later flight after your personal travel (the company owes you a round trip ticket, the dates are less important), but the hotels and food during your tourism are on you. Guideline 4: Treat the company’s money like your own. Want an upgrade for extra leg room, but that’s not in company policy? That’s on your dime. Think about saving up your per diem to buy your family dinner on your way home from the airport? The company doesn’t owe your family dinner -- and they could fire you or at least lose trust in you if they find out. Bottom line: it’s not smart to abuse expenses. You could get fired. Don’t be fired for something so avoidable. Guideline 5: If it’s not for work, it’s not expensable. If you’re not sure, ASK. If you choose to work at a coffee shop instead of home one day, it’s not expensable. If you’re having lunch with friends and they say “How’s work?”, that’s not expensable. If you take your team out, it probably IS expensable. And when you can expense something, don’t bust the budget or order the most expensive thing you can. Don’t take advantage. Guideline 6: Use the systems you’re told to use. Follow Finance’s guidelines. Keep receipts. Stay on top of it so that your expenses are up to date. If you pay attention to these guidelines - and to the guidelines of your company - you won't get into trouble with expenses at work.

Welcome back to Real Job Talk, Kat Kibben! Kat (pronouns they/them) is the founder of Three Ears Media, a speaker, advocate, and leader in the HR space around inclusivity and job descriptions. We're really pleased to have Kat join us for a second time on the podcast. (Check out their first appearance, Episode 38: Write a Resume that Gets Past the Screeners with Katrina Kibben (https://realjobtalk.com/38-write-a-resume-that-gets-past-the-screeners-katrina-kibben)) Every week, Kat writes a letter with their thoughts from that week. They started writing their letters as a marketing exercise, but found the letters got more personal and they eventually evolved to being about... life. Those letters are now a collection of stories titled This Was All An Accident focusing on their year of living in a van and traveling around the United States. According to Kat, the first step of accepting yourself is learning what it feels like to be happy. Kat started writing a list of what they were doing when they felt happy and then read the list every day and whenever they were feeling low. We unpack the word “should” and redefining boundaries in a way that works for us. Can a CEO live in a van and work 4 days a week? How did Kat redefine their norms to adjust to van life? Scheduling in van life has to be flexible, and not only did Kat have to adjust their idea of what work looked like, but their team had to adjust and refine their set up. Kat inspired Kat and John to take their own van trip. We discuss the planning of a van trip and how it’s a metaphor for life in that you can plan and plan, but you often run into and need things you don’t plan for. Both Kats learned that lesson in their van trips. Our lessons? Bring duct tape and an ax! We dive into vulnerability. Kat felt most vulnerable when they learned that their estranged father was reading their book. They wrote it for teenagers and people who could use the lessons they’ve learned in their life. What they found was that it felt most vulnerable when they knew people who they know in their personal life were reading it. They’re more used to people they work with knowing more about them from their work. Kat talks in their letters about hard things, but has very clear boundaries. Their rule is to not write about anything they aren’t certain about in their life. We talk more about boundaries and how they determine what to share and how to handle people who ask questions they aren’t ready to answer. Lastly we talked about staying realistically positive without being toxic. Kat’s answer is to focus on now vs the huge picture so that life isn’t overwhelming. One of Kat’s motivations is around helping kids, specifically queer and trans kids, feel comfortable and safe in their bodies. They mentor adults about being queer in the workplace and tell us some stories about how they help people live authentically. Get Kat's book, This Was All An Accident: Letters and Life Lessons (https://www.amazon.com/This-Was-All-Accident-Letters/dp/B0CGKR449L) on Amazon Kat's blog and personal site: katrinakibben.com (https://katrinakibben.com) Linkedin: katrinakibben (https://www.linkedin.com/in/katrinakibben/) Twitter/X: @KatrinaKibben (https://twitter.com/KatrinaKibben) Facebook: katrina.kibben (https://www.facebook.com/katrina.kibben) Instagram: @katrinakibben (https://www.instagram.com/katrinakibben/)

Welcome to Real Job Talk Robert Gilbreath! Robert talks to us about his career journey as a solopreneur, entrepreneur, and an employee and how he treats each role like he’s the owner of the company. Robert Gilbreath is an experienced solopreneur and entrepreneur, and joins the show to share his insights on work mindset, ownership of roles, networking, and evaluating side gigs. He has a diverse background that spans SaaS, ecommerce, partnerships, marketplaces, and product, with experience on both sides of the table across all those areas. Tune in as he delves into the importance of networking, being positive, and helping others. Robert shares his approach to evaluating new opportunities and emphasises finding purpose in what he does. We also touc “Act as if….” every company you work at is your own. Is a mantra (one of many) Robert Gilbreath brings into each role he has. It helps to guide him in making each organization better in some way from before he was there. Marketing is an interesting discipline because people throughout the company will have opinions on the work you are doing. The best marketers can switch industries- the academic side and the creative side and it’s about understanding your audience and how to connect with them. Success is often tied to taking ownership - of your role, your career, and your journey. That means saying “yes” in early career, trying new things, and owning both success and learning. We talked with Robert about side gigs and his approach to networking as a way to make sure he always has something interesting going on. Robert’s goal is to know everyone in Austin doing ecommerce so that he is always touching what’s happening in his space. Connect with Robert Gibreath Twitter/X: @robertgatx (https://twitter.com/robertgatx) Website: robertgilbreath.com (https://www.robertgilbreath.com/) LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertgilbreath/

Welcome to Kelli Thompson! Kelli is a speaker, coach, author, and HR executive who left the corporate world to pursue her passion for helping women advance their careers. She is driven to help more women make it to the board room, advance their careers, and bring their best, most authentic selves to the office. Today we’re going to be focusing on talking with Kelli about the very important topic of salary negotiation. Kelli’s career started in banking, where in her journey in HR and leadership development she noticed that most of leadership were men. She found joy as an HR executive in helping people figure out paths to develop their careers. She then worked for a tech company where once again she found joy in helping with career development. She liked that so much so that she worked for a consultant who specialized in career development and broke out on her own to do one-on-one leadership coaching -- which also included less travel. We asked Kelli her thoughts on Lean In and how she feels about women’s journey into the boardroom. Kelli agreed with us that the “do it all” idea can burn women out -- especially since women tend to take on more unpaid and unpromotable administrative work at work and take on more at home. We all agreed that being an executive of any gender requires a ton of support at home and in life so that you can dump what’s not necessary, doesn’t give joy, and you need to delegate and create boundaries. In order to grow in the executive ranks, Kelli asks us how can we show up and do what we want to do without feeling resentful. We ask Kelli how she coaches a burned out person who wants to get ahead. She said they usually are ahead -- but that it’s not sustainable. She first asks where in their life they feel most resentful. They eliminate just that and focus on what needs to be addressed so they can focus. We ask about when salary should be discussed in the job search -- up front as early as possible. And salary transparency helps! The issue with salary transparency in the remote first world is that the range is inclusive of all areas, which means that the range can include the salary in Omaha and NYC, which won't be the same. What that does is encourage transparency in the conversation, but also, Kelli says to look up jobs listed locally to know what your range is. And if the range is less than you want, there’s no harm in having an initial conversation and seeing if there is any flexibility. That said, if the job is being upleveled, you want to know where that “lower level” work will go -- it may still sit with you. To get the most out of salary negotiation, you want to talk about what you bring to the company (not your personal needs), the skills you bring, and what the company can get from your skills (increase revenue, lower expense, reduce risk, lead change) in order to demonstrate what you’re asking for. And if the range is more than you were expecting, keep that poker face! Just say, “sounds good” and remember, that initial number is still negotiable. Get what you’re worth! What’s negotiable in a job offer? Probably not the benefits plan, but sometimes you can adjust the boundaries of hybrid/remote situations and often learning and development opportunities. By understanding the benefits packages you’ll know what you can/can’t negotiate. Usually that first offer isn’t the ceiling. You can try for more. The worst thing they can say is no. Good people get hired, promoted, and raises even in a bad economy. Good people also get let go. Show your value and make sure your skills are what your company and other companies need. The best negotiators, even in a down economy, acknowledge the environment and showed what they can bring. The best negotiators are kind, direct, and show their value. Also, don’t forget that we learn a lot about you during the negotiation process, but also you learn a lot about the company by how they behave during the offer process. What does confidence look like in salary negotiations? It looks like trusting yourself.

Today we're talking about giving feedback at work. In talking with managers at work, Liz encouraged people to ask their people how they wanted to get feedback and how to deliver news positive and negative. Feedback, when given in a timely and kind manner, can be a gift. But often we forget key steps like finding out how someone likes to receive feedback or framing it in a way that makes sure your point is conveyed. Feedback tip #1 is to make it as timely as possible. When you finish something, talk about what went well and what could do better. When you’re in a team reflect as a team and as a manager give feedback fairly and in a timely manner so the person can learn in the moment. With performance reviews, if a manager doesn’t ask how you’d like to receive your review, for you to ask to see it up front (if that’s your preference). Ask for what you want/need in order to have the feedback discussion be as helpful as possible. Most managers will say yes, but if they don’t, you can say that you may not be as responsive or talkative because you need time to digest feedback to have the most impactful conversation. How do you respond to a review that is a surprise? Ask for some time to digest and ask for a follow up meeting. Then take a minute to reflect and write down your responses. You can write an emotional response as long as you throw it away and write a fact-based response. You don’t want to come across as emotional or reactive. Sometimes, if you believe a review is wrong or unfair, you need to consider the source and how much you respect their opinion on your performance. You thank them, respect their opinion, but then share your viewpoint and facts that back it up. Make your point with facts and evidence- be factual but not accusatory. The goal is to get closer aligned and share perception and meet in the middle. What if your manager refuses to talk about your review? The answer is “ok, I was hoping we could talk about it.” and then you need to make a career decision….When you realize there won’t be a conversation, you get out of the conversation as quickly and calmly as possible. You can give the rebuttal to your HR person to make sure your viewpoint is filed. What about less formal feedback? We talk about a friend whose boss unknowingly gave them really insulting feedback in front of peers. Our friend was LIVID and wanted to know what to do. We advised them to use the “When EVENT A happened I thought B and felt C” and to talk it though in the next 1:1. To then say that you know that’s not what they meant to do, and ask for them to give constructive feedback privately. Tell people how you want to communicate in real time. If you like Slack, say so. Same w email. Saying something like “I’m most organized in email, so please communicate with me there” doesn’t put them on guard but helps them know how to work with you. Ask people their preferences and honor them and that will help you build relationships. Your goal is to build real, authentic, kind working relationships and our communication style is on us to communicate.

We talk about a topic that has come up extensively over the last few months -- severance packages. What are they? What aren't they? Why do they exist? What do you do when you get them? Our goal is to answer all of the questions we get around them to help you learn and be prepared if you’re faced with them. Question 1: What is a severance package and what is the point of them especially if I’m an at will employee? "At Will" means that you don’t belong to the company. Why do companies give severance? To absolve blame and because it’s the right thing to do to get the person to their next job since looking may be unexpected. It is an agreement to keep quiet about fault, i.e., it’s money to say that this was a no-fault situation. It can have a combination of compensation and benefits, talks about your last day, and what needs to be done to earn it (like return your stuff or finish a project). Note that there is a timeline around signing it (45 days for over 40 if more than 1 person, different rules if WARN is enacted). Take your time to understand your package. Please know that people delivering the news are having a horrible day too. Question 2: Can I negotiate a severance package? Not really, unless you have very clear evidence that the company has done something wrong by you. It is usually determined by a formula. One exception is if you have a pending legal action or a documented legal case, or if you are an executive who has negotiated a separation ahead of time. Potentially yes, for sales commissions that close by a certain date. Don’t compare yours with the ones from other companies -- they’re all different and have different terms of their packages. Question 3: What can I expect once I hear I’m part of a RIF (Reduction in Force)? What the package is -- what it includes and what it doesn’t. Get a lot of paperwork (15-50 pages+) with all of the terms of the agreements. Last day and when and how to return your stuff. Expectations around what it takes to get severance and when you have to sign (don’t wait until the last day- it’s just annoying). COBRA information, which helps you stay on your benefit plan for 18 months after you leave the company. Question 4: Should I sue/get a lawyer? Not unless you have documentation that proves you’ve been harassed, etc. Have someone to review the paperwork. Know that a lawyer put your package together so it’s probably pretty sound. Question 5: Thoughts on posting my RIF on Linkedin/social media? You do you Being supportive to those affected is lovely, but you’re not RIFed, send direct messages and be supportive of people, but ndon't do a “I’m sad my colleagues are gone” posts. Share their profile, write a recommendation, and make the help about them, not you. Green circle on LinkedIn -- yes or no? YES! It makes you more searchable! Say what you want and leave your feelings to your inner circle. On Linkedin and social be positive and looking towards the future. Personal reach outs are better than big dramatic posts When you share desperation, people feel badly and helpless. Keeping it professional in professional groups and on Linkedin will help people know if and how they can help find the next job, but saying that if you don’t get a job soon you won’t be able to pay your mortgage makes people feel guilty and doesn’t work in your favor in professional circles. To wrap it up, being a part of a RIF is hard, scary, and heavy on the heart. To be prepared, listen to our Looking for a Job Learning Track episodes found on the resources page of our website (https://realjobtalk.com/resources). We recommend always having a current resume and Linkedin, and keeping your skills up-to-date in case you find yourself in an unexpected job search.

Liz and Kat Zoom in with Mpume Ncube-Daka all the way from South Africa to talk about change conversations. Mpume works with people to drive the best decisions in their growth and development. She is passionate about personal and professional development and learning through change. Mpume thought she’d be a doctor when she grew up, but realized she needed to change direction after a failed math class. She then became an accountant and has built a career on change. After laughing at humanities students in college, Mpume finds herself a student of people and passionate about psychology and human development. With careers in marketing, business strategy, accounting, and finance, she can see all sides of business problems and be able to connect with her clients. We ask Mpume about navigating workplace relationships - what advice does she give for navigating the modern workplace? She reminds us to take time to relate to people as human. Take out the noise and get to know someone as a human. Navigating a workplace culture is about navigating that company’s particular cultural nuances first. Once you understand that, you bring your authentic self into the space. First you want to observe how feedback is given and received- preferably at the interview- and see if it’s a place you want to work. We ask about navigating a full career change vs a just job change. The #1 thing is self-awareness. If you know yourself, you know what excites you, what you don’t want, and you want to do things that excite you and make you money. What skills and strengths do you have that are marketable? You may love to color, but it may not pay the mortgage. You don’t want to get all of the meaning of your life from work. We work to have the life that we want- all happiness can’t come from the workforce. Communicating effectively is a key skill to thrive in today’s work world. Mpume has ABCs of work communication. For her, #1 is interpersonal communication, which includes both verbal and non-verbal communication. We all want to be heard, no matter if someone agrees or not. If we feel heard and listened to we can work together. Be good at listening and giving the time to hear someone’s opinions. And it’s important to clarify that you heard the thing they were actually saying. They key to effective listening? Be present. Not checking email. Not checking Slack. Not prepping dinner. Clarify what they are saying to make sure you understand. We ask how do we stay present in today’s crazy world? Don’t make it about you. When it’s about understanding what the other person is saying, you can focus on their message. It comes to company culture- if everyone expects instant communication and people are Slacking during meetings, you’re not encouraging listening and being present. We ask for advice on behalf of our listeners who feel stuck in their career. Mpume wants you to look at what “stuck” looks like for you. Why do you feel stuck? Get to the bottom of why you’re feeling that way before you start to solve the problem. If you’re stuck, how do you getting out of the hole? Create goals to challenge yourself to get out of that space. Does being stuck feel different for women? Yes! Sometimes we need to make choices that work for us and what we want in our lives. That said, many women want to be super women and not drop anything, and we come at our situation from a guilt perspective. When we realize what we need and want and stop feeling guilty about what we aren’t doing, we find our power and our gratitude.

Today we’re talking about job abandonment -- something we’ve each seen a handful of times in our corporate careers. (Kat saw it more with people working in retail.) We want you to know what job abandonment is, how to avoid it, and what the ripple effect can be when someone abandons their job. What is job abandonment? Job abandonment is when you just disappear from work and nobody knows where you are for a certain period of time, even just a few days. It often leads to you losing your job. When someone doesn’t show up without any notice, management and HR starts asking around. Then they call, email, text, Slack, and try to get in touch with someone any way they can. HR gets involved when they resort to using personal and emergency contact info to get in touch. It’s a tough balance in trying to find the person and see that they are ok -- but you don’t want to set off too many alarm bells, just in case the whole thing was caused by a dead phone battery and an alarm not going off. At a point when the job abandonment is suspected, the authorities may be called to do a wellness check, hospitals may be called to see if someone’s there, and if someone knows the person’s kid’s school, the school may be called to see if the family is ok. Before letting someone go for job abandonment, management and HR will try to find them and make sure they are ok. Kat knew someone who just couldn’t deal with life and disconnected with their work. After trying to find them, the president of the company showed up at their house. Job abandonments are very stressful for managers and HR people, even when the person turns up OK.The worry that happens when someone disappears is very real, and companies want to avoid invoking their job abandonment policy. As the person who is managing your career, you do not want to be source of that stress and you want to be seen as responsible and reliable. If your company or manager doesn’t know that they can rely on you, your career in that role will be short-lived. And when you go to find your next job, it may be difficult to explain what happened if you simply burned your bridges and left. To avoid this, we have some tips to avoid noncommunication and miscomunication with your workplace when you really just can't come in. Someone you know will be aware if something is happening to you. Make sure they also have your manager’s contact info. You don’t have to tell work everything about your personal life, just what you need to communicate what to expect. For example, " need to go on medical leave" or "I need to take a week of personal leave." That's enough. Crazy concept: your company doesn’t pay you to not show up. BUT this has happened to other people before you, and because of that, the company likely has policies in place to support you if you can’t work. And your country may also have labor laws that cover this as well. You need to communicate enough to make sure that your job is protected. Don’t be the person who causes angst for others, and don’t have your decisions cause angst and disruption for your team or for coworkers depending on you. If you need time off, ask for it and take it. When people disappear from their job, projects get derailed, trust gets broken, the rumor mill goes nuts, and colleagues get overloaded. Don’t be the person who made this happen. Communicate, don't just ghost.

Welcome to Real Job Talk, Angela Loeb! We refer our clients who need their resumes done to Angela because she literally wrote the book(s) on resumes and job searching. Angela started out helping people to get into beauty school- she interviewed people and helped them get into classes. Angela got into recruiting by answering an online ad (a rarity!) and worked at an agency for many years until the 2009 recession. She wrote a book, conducted seminars, and hosted a radio show on “blog talk radio” on the job search process. We asked Angela about going out on her own vs working for agencies. Angela had a mentor who encouraged her to work from home and branch out beyond their agency. She started her business as a side gig (we highly recommend doing this first!) working with individuals until she realized that she could support herself with her own business. Angela helps people to brand themselves, write their resumes, and be able to tell their stories. You are marketing you, and you need to figure out your value proposition/branding statement. As a job seeker, you have to position yourself like a product. So how do you show resume readers what you can do for them? You think about what you mainly want _to do, and then highlight it with the rest of _what you can do sprinkled around the side. You want resume readers to see you how you want to be featured. If you start with your resume, it’s just an inventory of skills. If you lead with what you WANT to do, you tailor your resume to the job you want. If you assume everyone’s going to want to hire you, you’re not thinking about your target audience. Resume readers want skills, not adjectives. A lot of people come to coaches and resume writers to help them get clarity about how they can have impact. We asked Angela about the use of social media and how to be consistent in branding across different media so that your overall picture between your resume and social media is clear. Angela also says not to copy your job description on a resume, but agrees that you need to show that your experience matches the experience they are looking for. And, while many job descriptions talk about intangibles like “team player,” to say that you're a team player is white noise on your resume. You need to SHOW that you’re a team player, results driven or detail oriented in your accomplishments vs by listing those qualities. Front end work to get your strengths and goals clear is critical in a successful job search. Is the Great Resignation over? What’s the job market like today? Angela points out job cycles, and recommends that hard times cause companies to need different skills. We may end up in a limited hiring bubble, but right now companies are still screaming for talent. You may want to move to a role that feels stable for you. It comes down to knowing what you do that creates value and impact and can highlight it, you’re going to be more successful in your job search because you can pivot, modify, and adapt. If you have a skills gap, you need to fill it. Show companies you want to work for that you understand their business. You can get those gaps filled by volunteering, and also can expand your network that way too! Being a connector and getting to know other people can absolutely help you get your next job. Commenting on what you’re interested in and posting about it helps you become a thought leader in that space. Lastly, we asked Angela about video interviews and resumes. We’re seeing employers using more asynchronous video interviews. It’s convenient for the hiring managers and companies. Videos allow you to show people who you are, but it’s important to stand out and have an edge. Remember, you can’t have a video resume be too long or you’ll lose your audience. On video, you need to be “on”, engaging, and interesting. Watch examples of video resumes on sites like Bitable and use templates to get your message out there. Angela on Twitter: @angelarloeb (https://twitter.com/angelarloeb)