The Creativity, Education, and Leadership Podcast with Ben Guest

The script super is going to save your life. - Redd Coltrane

Chirsten Vanderbilt, Redd Coltrane, and Anthony Roberson and I talk our second semester of film school at USC.

You can listen to our first semester conversation here:

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

First of all, I think your superpower is just making things really easy. You already know the blueprint, the strategy, you've got everything there and you just fed that to me in a way that I was easily able to make my book a success.

Doone Roisin is the creator and host of Female Startup Club, a Top Ten Entrepreneurship Podcast and the bestselling author of Your Hype Girl: 51 Female Founders Share Their Most Impactful Learnings, Tactics & Strategies In Business.

I advised Doone in the lead-up to her book launch in March of this year and she has since connected me with several clients. As a result of these experiences I have started a book consulting business: Ben Guest Book Consulting. On my website are the services I offer, my rates, and testimonials, including this from Doone:

I worked with Ben ahead of self-publishing my debut book. He helped me with publishing, marketing and promotion. My book, Your Hype Girl, hit #1 in multiple categories on Amazon including "Women & Business", "Ecommerce and Small Business", as well as hitting the top 100 of all paperback books in my home country of Australia (#55). I did everything Ben taught me and the results were so much more than I had anticipated. We smashed every goal that was set and more. I can't recommend Ben enough!

Everyone has a story to tell. When you’re ready to tell your story please reach out.

In 2022, Doone was named Australian Young Achiever of the Year in the UK and, as a result, met Prince Charles at Buckingham Palace. In this conversation, Doone and I talk:

* The ancillary benefits of publishing a book

* Holding a physical copy of your book for the first time

* Trends Group on Facebook

* Using TikTok to promote your book

* The power of organic word-of-mouth

* Why having a checklist is key

* Identifying your “comparable” author and book

* Ben Guest Book Consultant. Rates here.

* Meeting Prince Charles

VIDEO

TRANSCRIPT

Ben Guest (00:02):

Hi, everyone. This is Ben Guest, and today's conversation is with Doone Roisin. Doone is the creator and host of the podcast Female Startup Club, which is a top 10 podcast in the entrepreneurship category. And I helped Doone with the final stages of publishing and then marketing and promoting her book, Your Hype Girl, which she released in March, and hit number one in a bunch of categories, was the number 55 overall bestselling paperback book in Australia. Doone is Australian, but currently lives in England, and ended up with her being invited to Buckingham Palace to meet Prince Charles.

Ben Guest (00:46):

So in this interview, we talk about all the steps we took to promote her book and the actionable items to make it a number one best seller in multiple categories. And also, kind of as an outgrowth of that project, a few other people have contacted me about helping them with their book launch or even other aspects of writing and editing their book. And so, I'm now launching a book consulting business, and you can find that at benguest.net, where I have all the services I offer, testimonials, my rates, et cetera. And essentially, Doone was my first client. So enjoy our conversation.

Ben Guest (01:29):

Doone, great to see you.

Doone Roisin (01:31):

It's good to see you too, Ben.

Ben Guest (01:33):

So, Your Hype Girl has been out in the world. How successful was your launch?

Doone Roisin (01:39):

Oh my gosh. It has been out in the world since, when did we launch it? March? It's been a while. March, April, May, June, July, August, five months. Wow, that's crazy. So how did it go? I would say it was pretty damn successful. For me personally, I wanted that offline experience to give to my audience, give to my community, and have that kind of thing that's out there physical that I could ship to people and hold. And so, for me success was literally just number one, getting that out in the world and having that there, so obviously, tick.

Doone Roisin (02:15):

I also was thinking about what success was to me, in terms of I wanted to hit the best seller list on Amazon for the categories that I really cared about. And the categories that I really cared about were women in business, eCommerce, maybe small business or something like that. They were the ones that I cared about, but I was also like, "We'll see," because I obviously had no benchmark against what I had done before because it was totally new to me.

Doone Roisin (02:48):

Yeah. It went better than expected. I hit all the bestseller categories that I wanted to and so many others. I hit them, I think, day of for some of them. I hit women in business day of, and I had estimated based on our talking, that could take three months maybe, chipping away, so I was really stoked with that.

Doone Roisin (03:08):

And I think the things that I didn't expect to come from it were the success in terms of speaking opportunities and the opportunities that came out of having the book out in the world. So last week I spoke to the women at JP Morgan about my journey and the book and entrepreneurship in general. I landed a gig sitting on an investment committee to be part of this new fund that's launching in Australia, which is going to be funding women-founded tech companies that are in impact and purpose-driven sectors. And so, that has just been so wild.

Doone Roisin (03:47):

It also led to, I won Young Australian Achiever of the Year from the High Commissioner of Australia, which led to me going to Buckingham Palace and meeting the future king of England. All these things rattled off the back end of the book which I hadn't put in my goals to begin with, but it really was like, "Whoa." When I take a step back now and I look at that, I'm like, "Damn that's cool."

Ben Guest (04:13):

It's amazing.

Doone Roisin (04:14):

Yeah. Yeah. It's been really cool. And I think the other thing that I probably expected to happen but didn't realize how amazing it is, which I should know because I already get a thrill from getting DMs from my community in general, but still seeing the power of the book out in the world. So people sending me a message of how it's impacted them, why they're loving it, sharing about it on social media, that feeling is just priceless. It's so cool. So yeah, those are the kind of goals that I had. I wasn't looking at it as a revenue driver for me, which I think is a really hard goal to have if you are going to be an author, especially first time. But yeah, that wasn't a goal for me.

Ben Guest (04:59):

So much of what we do is in the digital world, podcasts and Zoom

Auditions show you a different version of your story…

Katherine Vondy is a Los Angeles-based writer and director working in film, theater, and literature.

She istherecipient oftheDavey Foundation Theatre Grant for her playThe Fermi Paradox, andThe Broken Heart of Gnocchi Bolognese, her award-winning short film, has screened at festivals worldwide.

Her plays have been developed withtheSalt Lake Acting Company, The Athena Project, The Blank, Paper Wing Theatre Company, Campfire Theatre Festival, andTheVagrancy (where she currently serves as playwriting group moderator).

Her prose and poetry appears widely in literary journals and has been nominated for the Pushcart Prize, Queen’s Ferry Best Small Fictions, and Best of the Net.

Kat received her BA in English and Music from Amherst College and her MFA in Film and Television Production from USC. Read about her creative adventures on her website and follow her on Twitter here.

In this conversation Kat and I talk:

* Shooting on a Sony PD150 in her first year at USC.

* The value of limitations in filmmaking.

* Thinking through shots.

* Were classmates at USC more collaborative or more competitive?

* The most helpful class at USC…

* Why directors should take an acting class.

* The job of a director is to capture “authentic human performance.”

* Auditions show you a different version of your story…

* The essential components to adapting a story to film.

* The worst thing to do in storytelling is bore the audience.

* The impact of surprise on storytelling.

* The “popcorn scares” in Spielberg’s Jaws.

* Richard Linklater’s Boyhood

* “The taking away of a payoff can also be a payoff.”

* Starting not with story or plot but a moment.

* The value of our unconscious mind.

* Juxtaposing sadness and humor.

* Traumedy.

* Is USC worth the price?

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

Andrés Alvarez, of Box Score Geeks and Nerd Numbers, and I break down Game 3 of the NBA Finals.

We talk:

-The productivity of Rob Williams III, Kevon Looney, and Gary Payton II

-What’s wrong with Draymond Green

-Is Steve Kerr a good coach?

Enjoy!

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

Game 7 of the 2022 Eastern Conference Finals.

Twenty-three seconds left and the Miami Heat trail the Boston Celtics by only two points.

Jimmy Butler, Miami’s star player, gets the rebound and dribbles down court.

Al Horford of the Celtics is backpedaling.

With sixteen seconds left Butler pulls up for the three.

He misses.

Was it the right play?

Dre Alvarez, of Box Score Geeks, and I do a deep dive into the shot that wasn’t.

For more, see Dre’s breakdown of why Butler deserved the inaugural Larry Bird Conference Finals MVP here:

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

As we learn to become collaborators, as we learn to work with each other, it's wise to be vulnerable and share what you're feeling about each project that you're making. This can't be done alone. - Redd Coltrane

So I’ve just finished my first semester of film school at USC.

I was always interested in filmmaking, and made a few documentaries on the side, but I’ve never made filmmaking my primary focus.

Then, when the pandemic happened, like many of us, I reassessed what I was doing and what I wanted to do.

And so, here I am doing my MFA in Film Production at USC :-)

Finishing the first semester I’ve had several conversations with classmates around lessons we learned. There was so much information that would potentially be helpful for future film school students, and people interested in filmmaking. I asked three classmates to join me on the pod and share their wisdom.

My three guests are Chirsten Vanderbilt, Redd Coltrane, and Ant Roberson. We’ve all completed our first semester in Film Production at USC and here is what we have learned along the way.

In this conversation we touch on:

-Trusting your instincts

-How preparation frees you up on set

-Keys to good communication with your crew and classmates

-Setting good habits versus cutting corners

-Addressing potential cultural barriers

-“Now keep in mind I’m an artist and I’m sensitive about my s**t.” - Erykah Badu

-When shooting, check your footage before each new setup

-The power of checklists

-Self-care and setting time limits when editing

-Your subconscious is a super-power

-Storytelling has to come from a real place

-Writing a script while tipsy

-Great art comes from iteration

-Keys to being successful at USC

-How to engage with professors

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

[My publisher] was like, "We always publish our essay collections in this size and people like it, because they can throw it in their bag." And as much as that frustrated me, they were right and they are right. And there are all those types of signifiers that let you know whether a book will be literary or practical or nonfiction or fiction. And those things as consumers, we code them and register them.

Jen Winston (she/they) is a writer and bisexual whose work focuses on dating, queerness, and the millennial condition. They are the author of the critically-acclaimed book, GREEDY: NOTES FROM A BISEXUAL WHO WANTS TOO MUCH, which was just named a finalist for the 2022 Lammy Awards from Lambda Literary. Paper Mag wrote that GREEDY is “at once relatable, laugh-out-loud funny, and refreshingly illuminating,” and BuzzFeed named it a Best LGBTQ+ book of 2021, calling it “more insightful about identity than any book this year.”

Jen currently lives in Brooklyn with their partner, dogs, and iPhone. You can follow Jen on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at @jenerous.

In this conversation Jen and I discuss book marketing, including:

-Working with a cover designer

-Hiring a publicist

-Designing a custom Instagram filter

-Creating influencer packages

-The differences Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok for marketing books

-Reaching out to your niche audience

TRANSCRIPT

Ben Guest:

Jen, thank you so much for coming on.

Jen Winston:

Yay. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Ben Guest:

So the big overview question, what are the fundamentals of good marketing for a book?

Jen Winston:

Ooh, I'm glad you asked that. Well, I'm going to tell you what my day job is, because this is a very unique time when I'm not going to get in trouble for it, because I have given my two weeks and I'm between jobs. So currently I work at Meta during the day as a creative director, an associate creative director, focusing on things related to the meta. I just gave my two weeks, and in May, I will be joining Lyft as their creative director of social media. So I've been focused in the creative and marketing world for quite some time.

Jen Winston:

I'm normally not allowed to talk about that when I'm also like technically "Promoting my book," but what are they going to do? Fire me? They can't, because I'm leaving. So it's a very exciting time to be able to say that on a podcast, but I think what makes good book marketing and what makes good marketing in general is marketing that takes on the position of the person who's seeing the marketing and asks, what could this mean to people. And with book marketing, you want to make that you don't assume people already know everything about your book or anything about your book for that matter.

Jen Winston:

I think it's really important to have the premise of your book distill down into a very succinct sense or two, and marketing can also shape the core idea of your book. And in my case, that's really what happened. I thought about bisexuality. I had recently come out and I was still ashamed of it. I felt like it was this binary identity that I didn't really support. Like I was starting to learn more about gender and I was like, "There are lots of genders." This feels like an identity that supports men and women, and I don't really like that, but I've always identified with this word. And then I started reading about bi-theory, bisexual, and I learned that bisexuality actually challenges all these types of binaries, including gender. It just requires a bit of a reframing of the way we think about it.

Jen Winston:

And so I wanted to make sure that I was like, "That's what I want to write a book about now that I really believe in bisexuality," because it's been something that's been true for me for so long that I've been ashamed of essentially. And I was able to suss that out with the target audience and be like, "If I'm a bisexual who has never seen a piece of content like this, there are probably other bisexuals who have never seen a piece of content like this." And I looked on TikTok and there were 10 million uses of the hashtag bisexual. And so I was like, "Okay, that's an audience that I should speak to." Like, those people need to be seen and they need art created for them. And that's why I wanted to make sure I put the word bisexual in the title.

Jen Winston:

And I talked a lot throughout the process about how are we going to reach that audience. And it was always confusing because we were like, "Do we want to put it in this books for in section?" Which is like a lot of times books for straight white women typically. And then we could also put in the LGBTQ section where people might not see it. And I was really torn on that because I really think it speaks to a lot of the challenges the bisexual community faces. It's like, "Are we gay? Or are we straight?" And the reality is that like we are bisexual. We are none of the above at all of the above at the same time. And so it was really challenging to create something that spoke to that audience and found them where they were.

Jen Winston:

One thing that I also learned throughout the process is that the cover has so much to do with how the book finds its audience, because whether we realize it or not, books are brands. It signals to us based on design and in the literary world, there are certain books that we can see are going to be like, whether it will be a self help book, we can see whether something will likely be a memoir. That's why my publisher wanted my book to be a paperback book because if it were a hard cover, it would be less clear that it was a memoir. They're-

Ben Guest:

It's interesting.

Jen Winston:

Yeah. They were like, "We always publish our essay collections in this size and people like it, because they can throw it in their bag." And as much as that frustrated me, they were right and they are right.

Jen Winston:

And there are all those types of signifiers that let you know whether a book will be literary or practical or nonfiction or fiction. And those things as consumers, we code them and register them. And I knew that my publisher wasn't going to market my book as a literary book. And I know that it's a long pretentious cycle to get marketed as a literary book. You have to have an MFA and you have to have a... No offense to people getting their MFAs, Ben. And you have to have... Yeah, you have to have a lot of degrees and you have to have published in the New Yorker and the New York Times and you got to have all the bylines and I didn't have any of that because I've had to work a full time job and I could never afford to pay for an MFA program.

Jen Winston:

And I still wanted people to recognize that my book was quality writing and that it contained valuable information. And also that it experimented with form a little bit, because a lot of the essays in my book do experiment with form. Like one is written as a doctor's diagnosis or like a clinical study, another's written as a screenplay. Another is an email exchange. And then the whole thing is a blend of social theory and memoir. And I was really striving for that and I wanted to give it this high brow approach. And so my publisher had designed some covers that, when they sent me the covers, it firmly positioned it in the realm of chicklet. And I was like, "Oh, this answers the question of where we're going to position the book." Oops, sorry, hit the mic. "This answers the question of where they want to position the book. They want to position it toward straight women at target. That's what they want." And yeah, there was one cover with cherries wearing panties or something. It was like-

Ben Guest:

I still remember that from our first conversation.

Jen Winston:

Oh yeah.

Ben Guest:

It's so f*****g stupid.

Jen Winston:

Well, I will hand it to the designer because it's a really challenging design brief to all the earlier things I was saying. I didn't want a bisexual flag, but there's also not a lot you can do [inaudible 00:06:59] signal to this community. And so it was huge challenge. And I knew I needed to bring in like big guns essentially to solve that challenge and also to help position the book is a bit more literary. And so I found a designer who I love, whose work I loved on Instagram, his name's Rodrigo Corral. He just put together like a montage of all the covers he's designed. And I was like, "Oh my God," he designs like so many Chuck [Palahniuk 00:07:25] covers, just so many bestsellers, This Is How You Lose Her. So many iconic covers have come from his mind.

Jen Winston:

And I DM him totally unsure of what would happen. And he said he would, I had to pay him, but that was the best money that I spent because it helped my book. It helped people be proud to hold my book up on Instagram and for a physical copy of a book that is so, so important. And it's honestly important for an ebook too. I think, where I doing it over again, I would want to think more about how the cover plays in an e-book environment, especially for readers that don't have that view in black and white. That's how important the cover is. You want to think of it at every single phase. I also didn't like love how my cover collapsed to an audio book style. It was so built for the paper that it just didn't really play as well everywhere else.

Jen Winston:

And even when we tried to put a quote on the cover, we couldn't figure it out. So we ended up putting it on the back. But I think, yeah, the cover was such a huge part of the marketing. And then I let it inform this overarching approach and campaign and fun that we were going to have with the style. And so I worked with a friend, even though I'

The beauty of the Amazon Adwords is everybody who's searching on Amazon Books is a book buyer. You don't have to convince them to buy a book. You only have to convince them to buy YOUR book.

This is a bonus episode of my miniseries on how to PLAN, WRITE, EDIT, and PUBLISH your book. This episode is how to MARKET your book.

My co-host for the series is Greg Larson. Greg has written and edited more than 80 books.

In Part 1 we reviewed how to PLAN your book.

In Part 2 we reviewed how to WRITE your book.

In Part 3 we reviewed how to EDIT your book.

In Part 4 we reviewed how to PUBLISH your book.

Today Greg and I and special guest Mark Paul review how to MARKET your book.

Mark’s self-published book The Greatest Gambling Story Ever Told: A True Tale of Three Gamblers, The Kentucky Derby, and the Mexican Cartel, has sold more than 40,000 copies which puts it in the 99.99th percentile of books sold. The Los Angeles Times says, “It's light, it moves quickly, it's fun.”

Greg’s book, Clubbie: A Minor League Baseball Memoir, has sold more than 4,000 copies which puts it in the 98th percentile of books sold. The Los Angeles Daily News says, “If Clubbie isn't the best piece of baseball literature since Ball Four, it's the leader in the clubhouse.”

My book, Zen and the Art of Coaching Basketball: Memoir of a Namibian Odyssey, has sold more than 400 copies which puts it in the 60th percentile of books sold. The New York Daily News says, “I was hooked from the start. A terrific read of the can't-put-it-down variety!”

In this episode I first interview Mark and we talk best book marketing practices and what he learned moving 40,000 books. Then I take the best marketing advice from a previous interview I did with Mark and present that advice. Finally, I take the best marketing excerpts from Greg from our first conversation and present those. Enjoy!

TRANSCRIPT

Ben Guest:

Hi everyone. This is Ben Guest, and I've just finished a four part mini series with Greg Larson on how to plan, write, edit, and publish your book. So this is a bonus or companion episode on an important part of publishing your book which is, after you publish it, you have to market it. What good is a book that no one reads, right?

So this is a special episode where I've taken three different interviews and taken the best parts of those interviews about marketing and combined them. The first is a brand new interview with the author, Mark Paul, who I've had on previously. Mark self-published his book called The Greatest Gambling Story Ever Told, and at this date, he's sold more than 40000 copies, which is amazing. If you sell more than 4000 copies, you're in the top 2% of books sold in one calendar year, to sell 40000 is in the 99.9999 percentile.

It's an astounding number of books, especially self-publishing, the other distribution and marketing muscle of a traditional publishing house. So Mark knows his stuff. In the first interview, which leads off this episode with Mark, we talk two things. We talk genre choice at the beginning, before you even start planning your book, thinking about genre choice and using a great tool called Publisher Rocket, which is available on kindlepreneur.com.

I'll link to that in the show notes. And then we talk about Amazon Ads and kind of the back end after you've published, how to market your book. After that is the first interview I did with Mark several months ago, and that was Episode 34. I've taken the best parts of that episode that apply just to marketing and chopped that up and included that. And then the third part of the episode is the very first interview I did with Greg Larson also several months ago, and I've taken the best parts of that interview that applies solely to marketing and chopped that up.

So you're getting a brand new interview with Mark Paul, the excerpts of the best bits of marketing advice from Mark Paul from a previous interview and the best marketing advice from Greg Larson from a previous interview. So this should be a helpful introduction to book marketing. If you enjoy this episode, please recommend it to others. Please like the podcast on the platform of your choice and subscribe to my weekly newsletter at benbo.substack.com, B-E-N-B-O, .substack.com. Benbo is my family nickname. So, benbo.substack.com. I put all of this content out here for free. So if you enjoy it and you find useful advice or information in it, please take a minute to like and subscribe. Thank you and enjoy the episode.

Ben Guest:

Mark, thank you so much for coming on.

Mark Paul:

Glad to be here again.

Ben Guest:

You are the man when it comes to moving books, you've sold over 40,000 books of your self-published fantastic book, The Greatest Gambling Story Ever Told.

Mark Paul:

Thank you. I love mark getting my book. I never stop. If you're around me, you're going to hear about my damn book, I guarantee it.

Ben Guest:

So somebody comes to you, they have an idea, they want to write a book. How would you advise them to think about the process of marketing before they even start writing their book?

Mark Paul:

The number one thing I learned that I didn't know until after published my book and started marketing my book is, unfortunately, you're not going to sell many books unless you're in a genre that people buy a lot of books. You can sell a lot of books with an average book in a high demand genre, as opposed to having a magnificent book in genre that nobody cares about, nobody buys books.

Mark Paul:

But I mentioned to you that I wrote a book that in its premise is about a female, a filly trying to win the Kentucky Derby against the male colts, something that had only occurred twice in 150 years. And that's a great story, but there's not a lot of people out there looking to buy books in the horse racing genre. So I would've really probably not sold a lot of books, but I got lucky because my book had a big component to it, is that the guys that bet on this filly to win the Kentucky Derby made the bet at a little rinky-dinky racetrack in Tijuana, that they found out late was owned by the Mexican cartel.

Mark Paul:

So now they were faced with this dilemma, which kind of a cool thing where could a filly, a female beat the colts in the Derby. And of course now you've got, women are interested, you've got women engaged, sports fans, horse racing people, but now I have a genre of true crime and I'd probably have sold 10 books in true crime genre for every book I sold on horse racing, even though you could say my book is about ...

Ben Guest:

And you've mentioned that either on the first episode we did or off air, that when your book broke into the top 10 on Amazon of true crime, then I think you saw a bump in sales. Is that correct?

Mark Paul:

Absolutely. One thing I learned is you have to always be afraid. I lived in fear of falling into the well, and once you get into the Amazon algorithm well of not selling books and not being something that they think their audience wants, I don't know how you ever crawl back out of the well. One thing that I did is I really studied Amazon ad words and I realized quickly in marketing that Amazon is magnificent in one way.

Mark Paul:

And that normally when you run an ad, if you were going to run a Google ad words about your book, the problem is, is that most people, 99% of the people that are seeing it, aren't there to buy a book. So, you're up against it and you're wasting your money. The beauty of the Amazon ad words for books is everybody who's searching on Amazon books for a book is a book buyer.

Mark Paul:

So you don't have to convince them to buy a book. You only have to convince them to buy your book. So you already, you've got a real buyer on your hands there. So now you need to get into that algorithm and its success to get success. One thing that I did, I was not out afraid, especially in the beginning to spend money on buying ad words and having a budget for my book.

Mark Paul:

And they always tell you, well, if you're on Amazon basically, and you're self-published, you can get about 70% of every dollar of sales. So they say as long as you're spending money and you're not spending more than 70 cents per dollar received, you're at least breaking even, which was kind of my immediate goal. But I actually thought about it after a while. I was saying, well, I'm selling books, but I'm not making any money because I'm spending 70 cents every book that I sell.

Ma

A fifteen hundred advance and I get ten percent of net proceeds…

This is Part 4 of a Four-Part Miniseries on how to PLAN, WRITE, EDIT, and PUBLISH your creative work.

My co-host for the series is Greg Larson. Greg has written and edited more than 80 books.

In Part 1 we reviewed how to PLAN your book.

In Part 2 we reviewed how to WRITE your book.

In Part 3 we reviewed how to EDIT your book.

Today we’re going to review how to PUBLISH your book.

Specifically, Greg and I go into the differences, and benefits, of self-publishing versus traditional publishing.

TRANSCRIPT

Greg Larson:

The perception hasn't yet caught up with the reality, that's it? In the general public and in the traditional publishing.

Ben Guest:

Hi everyone. This is Ben Guest, and welcome to part four of my four part mini series on how to plan, write, edit, and publish your book. Today is episode four, publishing your book. And my co-host for this series is Greg Larson. Greg is the author and editor of more than 80 books. In this episode, we talk primarily the differences between traditional publishing and self-publishing. There's a lot more information I have to share on self-publishing, having self-published my own memoir, Zen and the Art of Coaching Basketball, and Greg traditionally published through the University of Nebraska Press, his memoir, Clubbie. We talk about both books in this interview. If you are interested in self-publishing, I can't recommend episode 34 enough, that self-publishing marketing and promoting your book with author Mark Paul, who has moved more than 40,000 of copies of his self-published book. So there's a ton of information in that episode. And in this episode, Greg and I break down the differences between traditional publishing and self-publishing. Enjoy.

Greg Larson:

Traditional publishing is just... Unless they transform their model to increase royalties and control to the individuals, it's just a model that's not going to work much longer. The problem at the core of all of this, is that from a readership standpoint, there is still this perception, maybe rightfully so, that a traditionally published book is going to be a better book than a self-pub. And that might be true by and large right now. But if you self-publish on Amazon, for example, you could get 75% of royalties, I think. And then Amazon's printing services just print on demand and just take 25% of the royalties for their part of it and you get 75%.

Ben Guest:

And you own your book.

Greg Larson:

And you own. Another problem is distribution. That self-publishing is... Those relationships are very real. So my publisher for Clubbie, University of Nebraska Press has relationships with Barnes & Noble or smaller publisher or smaller bookstores across the country. So that automatically, boom, before my book was even out, I had a thousand copies sold to these distribution outlets that are solely based on those relationships that the publisher has built. Now, would it be possible for an individual author to build similar relationships with distribution? Yeah, maybe, but then that's a lot of non-writing, non-promotion time. If you want to do all of the things that a traditional publishing house does, you're eventually going to have to become your own publisher. And in some ways that's the case, like building a relationship with your own copy editor, building a relationship with your own cover designer and person who does interior layout.

Greg Larson:

Ideally, that would be the same person. But I look at my rights and my contract, it's a $1,500 advance on the cloth bound, the hard cover, which is the only one that exists right now in physical form. I get 10% of net proceeds from sales on the first 3000 copies sold, and we sold 1500. And then I get 12 and a half percent on the net proceed for the next 2015, so I would max out at 15% royalties, net royalties. So my first royalty check came in. This is based off of a sales period where I had about 1500 sales. Right. $818 for 1500 copies sold. Now that's less the $1,500 signing advance. So approximately $2,300, it's a dollar and 50 cents per copy, something like that, is what I get paid.

Ben Guest:

There has been a ton of great promotion around Clubbie. Every single piece of promotion I've seen, you did yourself.

Greg Larson:

Yes, it's truly shocking. I was busting my ass all summer. I didn't expect any help from my publisher, and they lived up to that expectation, marketing-wise, if I said, "Hey, this person wants a review copy sent, could you send it to them?" They were quick on that turnaround time, but I got no indication that they cared one way or the other. And I was expecting that going into it. But yeah, dude, I was busting my ass getting into Forbes, LA Times, all these really big publications and got pretty unbelievable blurbs that did move the needle for me, but it was all me.

Ben Guest:

Right. And if we just do the math, so 1500 copies, that worked out, basically, between the advance and the royalties, let's say, 2300, 2400, somewhere around there.

Greg Larson:

Yep.

Ben Guest:

Okay. Let's say you sell 800 copies self-published on Amazon and you sell it for $7, right? You're going to take, I think it's 70%. You keep 70% of the royalties, seven times 800 times 0.7.

Greg Larson:

So that would be closer to $4,000.

Ben Guest:

So if you sold 800 books yourself, which you've done all the promotion, you wouldn't pocketed $4,000. Now there is a press has chosen you. Right. University of Nebraska Press can publish any fucken book. There's a million books out there. They've chosen you, so in the future, you are a published author that a publishing house has selected. At the same time, I was talking to my dad about this because my dad is in his early eighties. And so to people of his generation and the generation after him, how Mifflin publishing your book or whoever, Simon & Schuster publishing your book, that means something. But I said, "Dad, when's the last time you opened a book and looked at who published it?" No one even knows who's publishing books anymore.

Greg Larson:

Okay. I agree for the most part, but there are two things I would content. Those getting a contract from a big five or big six publisher is a far cry from getting a contract from a small press or a university press. That difference is true and real as far as design goes and as far as all of that goes. I would take a contract from a big five publisher. And then two, you're right, nobody looks at who the publisher is and says, "Oh, I'm not going to read that because it's some made up thing." But it's very likely that you would never have the opportunity to dismiss a self-published book, because it would never be in front of your face to be able to dismiss in the first place. Whereas, if I pull a book off the bookshelf at the bookstore, like I got to assume an older person would, they're not going to have a self-published book on the bookshelf in the first place.

Ben Guest:

Yeah. Hundred percent. And also to finish doing the math, we said the two non-negotiables in the editing episode, the two non-negotiables are a good copy edit, good cover design that might end up being around $5,000. So if you got to pay for that out of pocket, self-publishing, that $8,000 you just earned is now down to 3000 versus the 2300, we just kind of spitball.

Greg Larson:

Yeah. That's a benefit of the self-publishing process, is that you would have complete control over that. And you could pick whoever you want who has availability. You have to put the costs up front, but to me that would be worth it. Odds are, I'm going to self-publish my next book. I'm glad I went the traditional publishing route my first book and now shift. And now it's like, "Okay, I've been knighted by the traditional publishing world to a certain extent." I don't think I would've gotten that media attention if I were Greg Larson Press or whatever imprint I would make up. I don't think I would've gotten those media pieces. And now I have to ask myself, "Okay, the equation of, oh, getting in the LA Times, sold me 30 copies." I have no idea. I take that away if I'm self-published. But what I'm really taking away is proceeds of $45 for better royalties and less media attention.

Ben Guest:

With the media attention, I'm definitely going to give you a call when I'm a couple weeks out from self-publishing my coaching memoir. And just kind of put together the Greg Larson playbook. And then we can kind of see, okay, if you're self-publishing and doing some facts, similarly of the things that Greg did on his own, how much attention can you garner without a press behind you?

Greg Larson:

Yes. I think you'd be able to get my hypothesis that you could get decent amount of local media, like your hometown, that kind of stuff, like local newspapers, but the national media, I still haven't been able to test that hypothesis yet. But will gladly walk through. I've got a course for it, media pitch mastery course with Self-Publishing Sherpa, will gladly walk you through that process that I'm going to walk Ben through when the time comes.

Ben Guest:

Nice. Now I hope I don't die on Everest. Did you with Clubbie... I think I know the answer to this, but did you write the book and then shop it around or did you do a proposal and a query letter and all that stuff?

Greg Larson:

<

There is an alchemy to editing.

This is Part 3 of a Four-Part Miniseries on how to PLAN, WRITE, EDIT, and PUBLISH your creative work.

My co-host for the series is Greg Larson. Greg has written and edited more than 80 books.

In Part 1 we reviewed how to PLAN your book.

In Part 2 we reviewed how to WRITE your book.

Today we’re going to review how to EDIT your book.

TRANSCRIPT

Greg Larson:

Editing is everything that comes afterwards; with writing, that, I think, it's weightlifting. It's just showing up, putting in the reps, and pounding something out. That can be done by anyone who can hit a keyboard or who can write; but editing, I don't know, man; it's a certain alchemy to it, and I have no idea.

Ben Guest:

Hi, everyone. This is Ben Guest, and today is Part 3 of my Four-Part Miniseries on How to Plan, Write, Edit, and Publish Your Book. Today, Greg Larson and I are talking editing, and specifically, strategies to look at your book with fresh eyes. That's the key in the editing process, to be able to see your book new, and make changes based on seeing it "for the first time."

Ben Guest:

Greg is the author and editor of more than 80 books, and we discuss his memoir, Clubbie, in this podcast. And we also talk a little bit about my memoir, Zen and the Art of Coaching Basketball. Enjoy the episode.

Ben Guest:

I guess there are two main components to editing. One is self-editing, and the other is working with an editor, either a trusted reader, group of readers, professional editor, et cetera. Let me start with a couple tips and tricks that I use.

Greg Larson:

Please.

Ben Guest:

And I got this from a guy named Glen Stout, who has written a number of excellent books, and was the series editor for The Best American Sports Writing, which I read growing up. It was really a seminal introduction to good writing for me. And so anyway, Glen told me, "When you get to a certain point, re-do the entire manuscript in a different font, preferably a font you don't like; and then print it out, and read it in the new font." Because there reaches a point, I think for all of us as writers, where we need to trick ourselves into being able to see the work in a fresh light, as new as we can. So tip or trick number one is, print it out in a different font, different size, et cetera. Yeah.

Greg Larson:

I love that, because that's... It's so true, man. Those little tricks, you're like, "What the... That's not going to do anything." That kind of s**t really does work. You're going to look at it like it's a completely book, and you're going to see nooks and crannies that you didn't before. I'm stealing the hell out of that times. F**k Times New Roman dude, I'm going Wing Dings on this next draft.

Ben Guest:

Comic Sans, in 14.

Greg Larson:

Particularly a font that you don't like, that you don't like. That, I think, is really key. I really like that.

Ben Guest:

It's great, isn't it?

Greg Larson:

Yeah.

Ben Guest:

And the other two, the second one is one that everybody will tell you from the beginning of time, which is to read it out loud. And reading it out loud, you can hear right away if a sentence isn't working.

Ben Guest:

And then the third one is, and I haven't tried this yet, but, and again, this was Glen recommended this; bought an older Kindle, and these ones you can put a PDF on here, and then do the read aloud function, where it reads it in that computer voice. So it's not an audio book; it's just that kind of funky computer voice that doesn't even know the correct pronunciation or grammar or anything. But by listening to it, say it's similar to printing it out in a funky font; by listening to it like that, and I haven't done this yet, but I'm going to with the memoir that I'm just finishing. Listening to it like that; again, you're hearing it in a new way.

Greg Larson:

When you said, real quick, the memoir that you're finishing; you're talking about the one you're working with, the basketball?

Ben Guest:

Oh no, sorry. I should have been clearer. So, I got... That project is, we're right in the middle of just interview, transcription, writing. The memoir is about meditation and coaching basketball. And that one is 95% done. Probably by the time, hopefully, that these podcast episodes come out, it'll be right around the time on publishing that book. So that one's just about done.

Greg Larson:

Wow.

Ben Guest:

It just needs a few more things here, and then a copy edit, and then it's good to go.

Greg Larson:

Dang, I didn't know that you were that close.

Ben Guest:

I have this phrase, "Are you 90% finished, or are you only 50% finished?" And again, it comes from my filmmaking background of doing documentary, where you just get so lost in the weeds, and you can't tell, "Am I... Is this almost?" And I'm just thinking about every last little bit or, "Eh, it's just not working. I got something, but it just needs, it's going to need a lot more."

Ben Guest:

And so, for a long time, I was in that, "I think I'm 90% done, but I'm not sure if I'm 50% done." And actually, going back to our episode, writing, what really cracked it open for me was going back and looking at some of the journals I'd kept as a Peace Corps volunteer in Namibia, and having some I actual dialogue that I had quoted in my journal, that I could pull out and let the dialogue do the lifting, as we talked about in the writing episode. Because I was telling and not showing.

Greg Larson:

Yeah.

Ben Guest:

I was giving a laundry list of experiences that I had had, that sort of led to this epiphany of letting go of control, releasing control of trying to coach a team, and so on and so forth.

Ben Guest:

So anyway, long story short, it was by finding real-time dialogue that I had in my journal from years ago, that I could plug in that it really, "Okay. Now I'm more than 90% finished, and I just need to polish up a few things."

Greg Larson:

Yeah. So the previous version was probably a lot of summary, and not as much scene building.

Ben Guest:

Exactly. It was way too much. I've been working with Glen on this, and it was way too much... And he made the point of, "Okay, you have this background. How did you reach this point where you're letting go of the team, you're into meditation and so forth. How did you get there?" So then I wrote a chapter explaining how I got there. But it's the same thing we talked about last time, if you've got to explain that, you've already fucked up. Explaining it just made it boring. In some cases, I'm talking about being in the Peace Corps 20 years ago in Namibia; how do I make that come alive? And then fortunately, I kept some journals, and I found one of the journals, and bang, I had some dialogue in there that was perfect for what I'm trying to convey.

Greg Larson:

Backstory as exposition, was something that one of my professors in grad school really hammered in us: sprinkle in where it's necessary, but front-loading it all at the beginning, snoozefest, dude. Nonfiction memoirs in particular, I think make that mistake a lot; way too much background. "I was born in 1924." So nobody gives a s**t, dude, unless you're Teddy Roosevelt or whatever.

Ben Guest:

And I'm sure we'll get into this more in future episodes, where we talk the business side of it in marketing and promoting. But you have to think about who is the audience and who is the reader?

Greg Larson:

Yeah.

Ben Guest:

And I think a lot of times, especially for first-time authors, or for people that have an interesting story to tell, they want to tell their whole life, rather than, and we talked about this before, in the planning stage, there's a point to this writing. There's something you want to communicate. And if it's not related to that, it doesn't need to be in there.

Greg Larson:

Yes. Writing is entertainment. Even if it's art, it's entertainment. And if it's not entertaining and it's not informing, then what are you doing? It's just a journal.

Ben Guest:

And why am I reading your book? So going back to the editing process, for me, that's where we're making a reduction. Right? What does that look like for you?

Greg Larson:

For the handwritten novel that I'm doing, when I finish writing it handwritten, I'm going to have to go to a computer, and I'm going to have to transcribe it. That's like a free edit, because I get to think about it as not being an edit. I'm like, "Oh, I'm just transcribing it." But inevitably, who knows? That might be one of the times where I'm most in the weeds in the book ever, where I have it here on the page, and then I'm typing it on the computer. I've not thought about this out loud, explicitly, but was like, "Oh, will I make obvious changes while I'm doing the transcription?" I think, no. I'm going to honor exactly what's on the page, and I'm just going to write comments on the side for, "Oh, this has to change, because X happens in notebook 10, that kind of thing."

Greg Larson:

And then, I'm going to let it sit for six weeks. And in that process, I'm going to write something else, something completely different, probably something comedy, funny, silly stuff. And then after six weeks, I will go back through and read it. And I don't know if I'll have a pen in my hand or not, but I'm going to print it out. Not in a funny font yet; not in Wing Dings yet. I'll do that later,