Food Revolution

Matte chats with Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart, a member of the Oglala Sioux Tribe and the owner ofPainted Skye Management and owner and Head Chef at Etiquette Catering Co.in Rapid City, SD. Kim is an entrepreneurship and economic development specialist, facilitator, public speaker, trainer, entertainment manager, and chef. In this episode they talk about food as medicine, how to change your mindset around cooking, and indigenous modern cuisine.

Complete transcript availablehere.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

TikTok:@sicangucdc

Intro Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for our Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the Food Revolution.

Matte 00:00:29 Hi, this is Matte Wilson, back with another episode of the Food Revolution. This week, we're meeting with Kim Tilsen-Brave Heart. Kim, thank you for joining us today. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you and your background?

Kim 00:00:44 Sure. Um, good afternoon, everybody. I'm Kimberly Tilson-Brave Heart. I'm an enrolled citizen of the Oglala Lakota Sioux tribe located on the Pine Ridge Reservation here in South Dakota. I'm the executive chef and owner of Etiquette Catering. We are an artisan indigenous modern kitchen located downtown Rapid City. And I am also an entrepreneurial specialist. I have been helping other people develop their small businesses for the last fifteen years and I am a mother of three.

Matte 00:01:15 Awesome. I love seeing your posts on Facebook. Your charcuterie boards are so, so pretty. I just love it.

Kim 00:01:25 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, they, um, I feel really lucky, um, because the charcuterie board really helped us like transition and pivot during the pandemic, you know, ‘cause we are a very primarily events based business and when COVID hit, it was like this, everyone was calling and canceling their weddings and their reunions and all their big events. And our business went from being extremely profitable to like bleeding out money. And I tried to think of like, what could I do that is still very Etiquette and my aesthetic, but also my quality of food in a way that the average person could have it every day and you know, at least once a week. And so I kind of came up with like the charcuterie to go and it kept our doors open and that's why we're still in business. Otherwise I think we would

In this episode of Food Revolution, our host Matte Wilson talks to Foster Cournoyer-Hogan, a member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe from Parmalee. Foster currently works with the Initaitive as an intern through our WIK program (Waicahya Icagapi Kte, or They Will Grow into Producers, our year long internship for tribal members who are interested in becoming food producers). He talks about finishing up his senior year at Stanford University and future plans, how he became involved with the Food Sovereignty Iniative, and what he's learned about growing and wild harvesting over the past few years.

Complete transcript available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Consider donatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website: www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook: Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram: @sicangucdc

Twitter: @sicangucdc

TikTok: @sicangucdc

Intro Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for our Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the Food Revolution.

Matte 00:00:29 All right. So I'm here with Foster Cournoyer-Hogan. Um, Foster, can you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background.

Foster 00:00:35 Hau Mitakuyapi, cante waste nape ciyuzapelo. Foster Cournoyer-Hogan emaciyapelo. Hi, my name is Foster Cournoyer-Hogan, I am a senior at Stanford University graduating in a few weeks. Um, I'm from Parmalee and yeah, that's a little bit about me.

Matte 00:00:59 Cool. And for those of you who don't know, Foster’s been with the, um, with our organization, the Food Sovereignty Initiative for, um, for a number of years, um, Foster, tell us a little bit about how you got involved with our program.

Foster 00:01:12 Yeah, so my, I think I was a freshman, the summer of my freshman year of college. I was looking for a summer internship or summer job and came across this opportunity that the school offers to partner with any nonprofit. And so I was asking around like what I could do, where I could go, and I knew I wanted to come home for the summer, but I just didn't know where, where to be placed. So then someone made the connections with Mike [Mike Prate, Development Director of the Sicangu CDC and former FSI Director] and Mike was like, yeah, sure, come on. You know, we'd love to have you here. So then got placed with the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative and from there, and I came back the following year and I think last year was my first break. And then here I am again with the WIK internship.

Matte 00:02:10 Yeah. And so for those who don't know, um, our WIK internship Waicahya Icagapi Kte um, which is, um,

In this episode of Food Revolution, host Matte Wilson chats with Vi Waln, a He Dog community member and the founder of the Lakota Wellness Society. Matte & Vi talk about pressing issues facing the Oyate, the idea of food as medicine, an Oceti Sakowin community fire cider project, and her work to provide wild medicinal and edible plants to relatives on the Rosebud.

Full transcript available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Consider donating to the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website: www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook: Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram: @sicangucdc

Twitter: @sicangucdc

TikTok: @sicangucdc

Intro 00:00:00 Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for our Sicangu Lakota Oyate, the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the Food Revolution.

In today's episode of food revolution, Matt chats with Vi Waln, a He Dog community member and the founder of the Lakota Wellness Society about pressing issues facing the Oyate, the idea of food as medicine, and her work to provide wild medicinal and edible plants to relatives on the Rosebud.

Matte Right Vi, can you introduce yourself to us? Tell us a little bit about your background

Vi 00:00:49 Mitakuyapi, cante waste nape ciyuzapi. Cante hunkeshniwe Emaciyap. My name is Viola Waln, everyone calls me Vi. I've lived on the reservation for most of my life. I live in the He Dog community, and I've spent a lot of years as a journalist, but now I've shifted my life purpose and we founded a nonprofit called Lakota Wellness Society, and we want to get more involved in food sovereignty and grow a hemp crop in the He Dog community. So that's basically what I'm doing now, Matte.

Matte 00:01:37 Awesome. Thank you. What inspired you to start Lakota Wellness Society?

Vi 00:01:42 Well, I have a big interest in traditional medicinal plants that grow he

In this episode of Food Revolution, Matte talks to Karen Moore, owner & operator of Wakalyapi Produce, a coffee roastery located on the Rosebud Reservation. Karen completed the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative's Waicahya Icagapi Kte (WIK, or They Will Grow Into Producers) adult internship program for tribal members interested in becoming local food producers & entrepreneurs in 2020, and shortly thereafter launched their business. Matte & Karen talk about how Karen got into coffee & started roasting, the different beans & roasts they've tried out, what it's like to launch a new business, and Karen's long-term plans to expand her business by growing coffee & ketogenic vegetables right here on the Rosebud.

You can order coffee from Karen here (and yes, they ship!)

Full episode transcription availablehere.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

TikTok:@sicangucdc

(Intro) 00:00:00 Hau Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for the Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the Food Revolution.

(Matte) 00:00:29 In today's episode, I'll be talking to Karen Moore, a Rosebud based food entrepreneur and the founder of Wakalyapi Produce. Karen completed the Food Sovereignty Initiative’s adult internship program in 2020, a year long paid program which teaches interested tribal members how to become food producers. Karen roasts coffee locally on the Rosebud Reservation, and we'll be talking with them about what it's been like to launch and grow their business today.

Can you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your background and about your business?

(Karen) 00:01:06 Sure. My name is Karen Moore, I'm an enrolled member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe and currently live in Mission, South Dakota. Um, my background, I, for most of my life, I grew up around here on the reservation in just different communities, um, and went to school and got my Associate's and Bachelor's in science from Sinte Gleska University and just worked like odd jobs here and there at the university. Um, I got an internship down in Virginia and then when I came back, I started working at the local coffee shop and that's really how I got introduced to coffee and like, how you don't have to add sugar and creamer to every cup to enjoy it. Um, and after a few

In today's episode, Matte talks Deanna Eaglefeather, a member of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe who lives with her husband and four kids on a homesite east of Mission, SD on the Rosebud Reservation. Deanna shares how and why she made her way home to Rosebud after growing up in the Twin Cities, how she became interested in food sovereignty, growing food, and harvesting the wild foods of the prairie, some of her family's future plans for their homesite, and some tips for tapping boxelder (a species of maple) trees for sap to make syrup right here on the prairie.

Full episode transcription availablehere.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

TikTok:@sicangucdc

(Intro) 00:00:00 Hau Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for the Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the Food Revolution.

(Matte) 00:00:29 Hey everyone. This is Matte Wilson. Today we'll be talking to Deanna Eaglefeather about the path she and her family have taken to practice food sovereignty in their everyday lives. Later on in the episode, Dee is going to talk about tapping boxelder trees to make syrup, and walk us through that process a little bit. This episode was recorded in advance, so we wanted to let you know that the best time to tap trees for sap is in late February or early March, when the temperatures are above freezing during the day and below freezing at night.

While you're listening, we have a favor to ask. The Food Sovereignty Initiative is currently doing surveys to help us understand the experience our community members have around food, so that we can work towards building a more inclusive and equitable food system where everyone has access to healthy, fresh, local foods. Respondents will be entered into a drawing for cash prizes, with the chance to win up to $500. If you're interested, head over to our Facebook page, Sicangu Community Development Corporation, for more information and to access the survey. And now, back to the show.

(Survey available here. Please only complete it if you live on or within 30 miles of the Rosebud Reservation.)

(Matte) 00:01:30 Dee, wanna introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about your background, how you came to be living on Rosebud?

(Deanna) My name is Deanna Eaglefeather

In this episode of Food Revolution, our host (& Director of the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative), Matte Wilson, talks to Marla Bull Bear, Executive Director of Lakota Youth Development. Lakota Youth Development, or LYD, has been empowering Lakota youth by providing programming that reconnects them to their indigenous identity for the last fifteen ears. LYD provides youth with opportunities to learn about gardening, beekeeping, entrepreneurship, and more. You can learn more about their work at www.lakotayouthdevelopment.org and support the program's youth entrepreneurs by purchasing honey and beeswax products atwww.lakotahoneylodge.org.

Full episode transcription available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website: www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook: Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram: @sicangucdc

Twitter: @sicangucdc

TikTok: @sicangucdc

(Intro) Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for our Sicangu Lakota Oyate- the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the Food Revolution.

(Rooster crows)

(Matte) All right, welcome back to another week of the Food Revolution. While you’re listening, we have a favor to ask. The Food Sovereignty Initiative is currently doing surveys to help us understand the experience our community members have around food, so that we can work towards building a more inclusive and equitable food system where everyone has access to healthy and fresh local foods. Respondents will be entered into a drawing for cash prizes, with the chance to win up to $500. If you’re interested, head to our Facebook page, Sicangu Community Development Corporation, for more information and to access the surveys. And now, back to the show.

(You can access the survey here).

Today we'll be talking with Marla Bull Bear. Marla, can you introduce yourself please? Tell us a little bit about yourself, and your background, and what you do.

(Marla) Oh,

Welcome to the Thanksgiving edition of Food Revolution! In this episode, we asked our Native community members to reflect on the question "What does Thanksgiving mean to you?" In response, we received reflections on the sacrifices Native ancestors made so that they and their descendants could survive, calls for the true history of Thanksgiving to be taught, reminders on the importance of families coming together to share a meal, and more.

Thank you all for listening & supporting Food Revolution during season one! We'll be taking a break for a bit before the launch of season two, but want to send a special thank you to all of our guests who have so generously shared their stories with us over the course of this season.

Full episode transcription available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

Matte (00:00:00) So this day is a day of remembrance. We remember our relatives and our ancestors, and all the hardships that they endured. We remember that even today, we are still going through challenges and struggles

Intro (00:00:12) Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for the Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the food revolution.

Mairi (00:00:41) Hey everyone. This is Mairi with the Food Sovereignty Initiative. You're listening to the Thanksgiving edition of Food Revolution, which will be our final episode of season one. Thank you all for supporting us this season, and a special thank you to our guests on the show for sharing your stories with us.

If you're listening to this, you probably know that the Thanksgiving story has been falsified and whitewashed throughout the history of the United States. (And for more on that, you can check out our blog post titled “Thanksgiving and Native Foodways: From 1621 to 2020” on our website, www.sicangucdc.org). But giving thanks was, and continues to be, a pillar of many Native cultures both before and after colonization.

For today's episode, we asked our Native community members to reflect on the question “What does Thanksgiving mean to you?” In response, we received reflections on the sacrifices that Native ancestors made so that they and their descendants could survive, calls for the true history of Thanksgiving to be taught, and reminders on the importance of families coming together to share a meal. Without further ado, I'll let Matte Wilson, the Food Sovereignty Initiative Director, kick us off.

In this episode, Matte Wilson from the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative chats with Jimmy Doyle, Bison Manager of the Wolakota Buffalo Range. The Wolakota Buffalo Range is a collaboration between REDCO (the Rosebud Economic Development Corporation, the economic development arm of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe), the World Wildlife Fund, and other private and public organizations and agencies across the United States.

Located on 28,000 contiguous acres on the southeast corner of the Rosebud Reservation, the range will be home to the largest Native-managed bison herd in the world once it is fully stocked. Jimmy shares a bit about how the project came to be, what it's like to manage a bison herd with the goal of regenerating degraded prairie land, and how this project will play a role in rekindling the connection between bison and the Lakota peoples.

Transcription available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

(Intro) Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week we’ll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for the Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the food revolution.

Matte (00:00:30) Alright, welcome back to another episode of Food Revolution. This is Matte Wilson, and today our topic is going to be about the Wolakota Buffalo Project, which will soon be the world's largest indigenous managed Buffalo herd in the world today. Our guest is Jimmy Doyle. Jimmy, do you want to introduce yourself?

Jimmy I am the buffalo Range Manager for the Wolakota Project for REDCO here on the Rosebud Reservation.

Matte Awesome. So Jimmy, tell me a little bit about Wolakota; what organizations have been involved in this project and how long has the project been in development?

Jimmy You know that's a good question. As far as how long it's been in development, it all kinda started before I came on board, but I'd say it's been well over a year in the making, you know, as far as getting all of the approval and funding in place. And it's been a partnership in every sense. I'm sure I'll miss some of the people who've been involved in this, but, you know, REDCO of course is spearheading the efforts on the ground out here, but we have a lot of different partners who have helped make it a reality. Some of the big ones would be World Wildlife Fund has been a tremendous resource. The Department of Interior and national park

In this episdode of Food Revolution, you'll be listening to an excerpt from a conversation with Corrinne Sully, a member of the Okreek community on the Rosebud Reservation as well as a food sovereignty advocate, seed saver, and the cook for the Okreek elementary school. The conversation was recorded this past August during a tour of Corrinne’s home garden. Before COVID, Corrinne lead garden to cafeteria efforts and planting activities for kids at the Okreek school. In the summer months she can be found giving away produce from her garden on Sunday afternoons in downtown Mission. Corrinne is a lifelong gardener, and, for those of you who listened to our previous episode, sister to Carmelita Sully, Manager of the Sinte Gleska University Greenhouse.

Transcription available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

YouTube:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

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(Intro) Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for the Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. Together, we're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be part of the food revolution.

Mairi (00:00:30) Hey everyone. This is Mairi with the Food Sovereignty Initiative. In today's episode, you'll be hearing an excerpt from a conversation with Corrinne Sully, an Okreek community member, food sovereignty advocate, and the cook for the Okreek elementary school. The conversation was recorded this past August during a tour of Corrinne’s home garden. Before COVID, Corrinne led to garden to cafeteria efforts and planting activities for kids at the Okreek school. In the summer months, she can be found giving away produce from her garden on Sunday afternoons in downtown Mission. Corrinne is a lifelong gardener, and, for those of you who listened to our previous episode, sister to Carmelita Sully, Manager of the SGU Greenhouse. The complete conversation will be available Friday afternoon on our website, www.sicangucdc.org, or you can listen on Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon Music, or Pocket Casts.

Mairi How much time do you spend gardening?

Corrinne (00:01:20) Between my husband and I probably ten to twelve hours a day. Because he does all the watering and some of the weeding, but I do all of the planting and all of the harvesting, and sometimes he'll help and help me carry stuff in. But yesterday I pi

In this episode of Food Revolution, SFSI Media Coordinator Mairi Creedon chats with Carmelita Sully, a Master Gardener and Manager of the Sinte Gleska University Community Greenhouse. Originally from the Okreek community, Carm shares a bit about her background, how she came to be involved with the SGU Greenhouse and the changes she's made to the program over the years, and her hopes for the future of food sovereignty on the Rosebud.

Transcription available here.

Enjoy listening to Food Revolution? Considerdonatingto the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative to help us in our mission to build food sovereignty and a local foods economy to empower our tribal community through food! Donations are 501(c)3 tax deductible.

Website:www.sicangucdc.org

Facebook:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

Instagram:@sicangucdc

Twitter:@sicangucdc

YouTube:Sicangu Community Development Corporation

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Carmelita Sully: “It's going to be a major health improvement on our community. If we could get more people to be eating fresh vegetables and not from the grocery store. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I go to the grocery store, I’ll buy stuff from the grocery store that I don't have in season or whatever, but the fewer trips that we can make to the grocery store and instead make them to our backyard garden, or to the farmer's market, or to whoever, your neighbor that has tomatoes or whatever is going to be healthier for our people in the long run.”

Intro (00:00:36) Han Mitakuyapi, and welcome to Food Revolution, brought to you by the Sicangu Food Sovereignty Initiative. Every other week, we'll be bringing you stories of food sovereignty from community members and tribal food producers working to build a more just, equitable, and regenerative food system for our Sicangu Lakota Oyate - the Burnt Thigh Nation. We're building tribal sovereignty through food, and we've set a place at the table just for you. Join us and be a part of the food revolution.

Mairi (00:01:05) Hey everyone. This is Mairi with the Food Sovereignty Initiative. Today on the show, you'll be listening to an interview with Carmelita Sally, a Master Gardener, Manager of the Sinte Gleska University Community Greenhouse and Okreek community member. Carm will talk a bit about her background in regards to food sovereignty, how she came to be involved with the SGU greenhouse and other food sovereignty projects on the reservation, and will share her hopes for the future of food.

I was wondering if you could just introduce yourself and then tell me a bit about yourself and your background, and where you're from.

Carm (00:01:34) I'm Carmelita Sully. I work here at Sinte Gleska University Greenhouse. I grew up in Okreek on a ranch, I was the youngest of 15 kids. I've been working here at SGU for 10 years now, I started in April of 2010.

Mairi (00:01:53) I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about the history of the SGU greenhouse and how you became involved with it 10 years ago?