Friends to Lovers

In 2011, E.L. James published the erotic romance Fifty Shades of Grey, which became one of the best-selling books of the 21st century. However, critics quickly pointed to its problematic depictions of BDSM practices and relationships at large, despite its massive readership. Now, a decade after publication, Mackenzie and Lily talk to Kim Pham, founder of food company Omsom who's been open about her BDSM journey, about the misconceptions surrounding kink, fetish, and BDSM—and what we all need to know instead.

Content warning: Discussions of abusive and manipulative relationships, sexual assault, and sexual violence.

Spoiler timestamp: This episode contains spoilers of Fifty Shades of Grey by E.L. James from 53:48-1:22:22.

Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (1:40), Introduction to Main Topic (2:32), Introduction to Kim Pham (9:15), Discussion of Major BDSM, Kink, and Fetish Definitions (13:47), Question About How the Internet Gate-Keeps Sex-Positive Content (17:16), Discussion of Common Misconceptions About BDSM (18:40), Discussion of Common Misconceptions That Seemingly Well-Informed People Have (21:19), Examples of Kink That Isn’t Physical or Sexual (23:48), Discussion of How Pop Culture Gets BDSM Wrong and What Better Depictions Look Like (28:15), Discussion of Aftercare (35:25), Discussion of Resources for BDSM Newbies (41:20), Kim’s Concluding Points (50:17), SPOILERS: Discussion of Fifty Shades of Grey (53:48), What Else We’re Reading (1:22:22), Conclusion (1:28:04).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com).

Is this the end of F2L? This week, Mackenzie and Lily come to virtual blows (sort of) about one of the genre's most popular tropes—and one of Lily's personal favorites: Enemies-to-lovers. Is it really as great as everyone says it is? Or is it totally overrated?

Spoiler timestamp: This episode contains spoilers of The Simple Wild by KA Tucker from 13:07-23:21.

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (1:12), Introduction of Main Topic (1:58), Discussion of Block Shot by Kennedy Ryan and It Happened One Summer by Tessa Bailey (7:44), SPOILERS: Discussion of The Simple Wild by KA Tucker (13:07), Discussion of The Worst Best Man by Mia Sosa (23:21), Discussion of Top Secret by Elle Kennedy and Sarina Bowen (25:56), Discussion of Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston (28:04), Discussion of The Wall of Winnipeg and Me by Mariana Zapata (30:52), Discussion of The Right Swipe by Alisha Rai (34:19), What We’re Reading Now (39:39), Conclusion (47:20).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com). Full episode transcription by Colleen Ward.

Why are there so few plus-size protagonists or love interests in romance novels? And why are there even fewer books with plus-size protagonists AND love interests in the same story? This week, Mackenzie and Lily dive into the romance genre's ongoing issues with fatphobia and discuss which books and authors are at least getting the conversation going.

Content warning: This episode discusses clothing sizes, disordered eating, and weight.

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (2:25), Introduction to Main Topic (3:10), Discussion of Spoiler Alert by Olivia Dade (12:43), Discussion of Take a Hint, Dani Brown by Talia Hibbert (17:51), Discussion of Xeni by Rebekah Weatherspoon (21:52), Discussion of One to Watch by Kate Stayman-London (26:23), Discussion of Brazen and the Beast by Sarah MacLean (33:05), Discussion of If the Shoe Fits by Julie Murphy (34:24), What Else We’re Reading (36:08), Conclusion (43:18).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com). Full episode transcription by Colleen Ward.

What makes a romance novel steamy? And do other people think some of your favorite sexy romance novels are all that steamy? This week, Mackenzie and Lily dive into creating a five-level "steam scale" for how to rank the steaminess of books. Mack also discusses what level of the steam scales she taps out at, and Lily describes the novel that made her head implode.

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (1:23), Introduction to Main Topic (3:46), Discussion of Taylor Jenkins Reid's Novels (13:14), Discussion of Mhairi McFarlane's Novels and Would Like to Meet by Rachel Winters (14:12), Discussion of Next Year in Havana by Chanel Cleeton and The Stationary Shop by Marjan Kamali (17:37), Discussion of Katherine Center’s Novels (19:50), Discussion of The Wedding Date by Jasmine Guillory (20:22), Discussion of The Trouble with Hating You by Sajini Patel (22:00), Discussion of Roomies by Christina Lauren (24:04), Discussion of Josh and Hazel’s Guide to Not Dating by Christina Lauren (25:13), Discussion of Twice in a Blue Moon and Other Novels by Christina Lauren (25:51), Discussion of Talia Hibbert and the Brown Sisters Trilogy (30:37), Discussion of The Idea of You by Robinne Lee (31:54), Discussion of The Marriage Game by Sarah Desai and The Dutchess Deal by Tessa Dare (34:23), Discussion of The Roommate by Rosie Danan (40:06), Discussion of Birthday Girl by Penelope Douglas (40:37), Discussion of Him by Elle Kennedy and Sarina Bowen and Lush Money by Angelina M. Lopez (43:36), Discussion of Priest by Sierra Simone (50:28), Discussion of the Beards & Bondage Series by Rebekah Weatherspoon (52:23), What Else We’re Reading (56:18), Conclusion (01:03:05).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com). Full episode transcription by Colleen Ward.

Season two of the podcast kicks off with a trip down hot mess memory lane. In this episode, Mackenzie and Lily reminisce about the YA books they read during their teen years that gave them the absolutely wrong romantic ideas in adulthood.

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (3:34), Introduction to Main Topic (5:04), Discussion of The Clique by Lisi Harrison (13:52), Discussion of Gossip Girl by Cecily von Ziegesar (17:08), Discussion of the Alice Series by Phyllis Reynolds Naylor (23:26), Discussion of The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants by Ann Brashares (28:59), Discussion of Sarah Dessen’s Books (35:56), Discussion of the TTYL/Internet Girl Series by Lauren Myracle (44:09), What Else We’re Reading (48:30), Conclusion (58:03).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569/.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com). Full episode transcription by Colleen Ward.

Welcome back to season 2 of Friends to Lovers, a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Our 10-episode second season launches on January 11th, so get ready for a lot more chaos.

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569/.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com).

In the penultimate episode of season one, Mackenzie and Lily talk about their favorite love stories (not exclusively romance novels!) of 2020. Find out why ghosts deserve love too, who becomes the first male author ever mentioned on the podcast, why Lily believes everybody's read Mexican Gothic incorrectly, and more.

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (1:03), Introduction to Main Topic (1:57), Discussion of The Roommate by Rosie Danan (3:07), Discussion of Anxious People by Fredrik Backman (6:41), Discussion of Take a Hint, Dani Brown by Talia Hibbert (8:53), Discussion of Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall (11:55), Discussion of The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett (14:45), Discussion of Felix Ever After by Kacen Callender (18:00), Discussion of Layla by Colleen Hoover (21:20), Discussion of Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia (25:19), Introduction to What We're Reading Now (30:08), Discussion of Act Your Age, Eve Brown (30:14), Discussion of Joyful: The Surprising Power of Ordinary Things to Create Extraordinary Happiness by Ingrid Fetell Lee (33:24), Conclusion (37:55).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569/.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com).

In the final episode of season one (!), Mackenzie and Lily give their recommendations for underrated books under 250 pages that you can read this holiday season. Plus, Mackenzie shares her favorite trash human read of quarantine and Lily discusses not knowing what a book's about even six months after reading it. If that wasn't enough, there are season two teasers at the end of the episode. See y'all on January 11th!

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (1:00), Introduction to Main Topic (2:12), Discussion of This Is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone (6:09), Discussion of Thick and Other Essays by Tressie McMillan Cottom (9:31), Discussion of Upright Women Wanted by Sarah Gailey (12:59), Discussion of Kim Ji-young, Born 1982 by Cho Nam-ju (14:52), Discussion of Minor Feelings by Cathy Park Hong (16:54), Discussion of Notes to Self by Emilie Pine (19:14), Introduction to Bad Bitch Book Club Member Recommendations (21:52), Discussion of Ghosts in the Schoolyard by Eve Ewing (22:17), Discussion of Sabrina & Corina by Kali Fajardo-Anstine (23:11), Introduction to What We're Reading Now (25:06), Discussion of Birthday Girl by Penelope Douglas (25:17), Hearts Unbroken by Cynthia Leitich Smith (27:58), Conclusion (30:23).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569/.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com).

Welcome to the inaugural episode of Classified, an ongoing series where Mackenzie and Lily read and rank all of the existing work by a romance or romance-adjacent author. We're kicking things off with the work of Taylor Jenkins Reid because Mackenzie is founder, president, and CEO of the TJR fan club, and Lily has also read all of her books. (She likes them too, she swears!)

Note that there are NO spoilers in this episode!

Production note: We're aware that this episode has some hinky audio. Because it was based around the element of surprise, we didn't want to re-record and not capture those reactions. We'll be back to our baseline quality audio next week!

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (1:37), Introduction to Main Topic (2:00), Introduction to Taylor Jenkins Reid (3:59), Discussion of What Makes a Quintessential Taylor Jenkins Reid Novel (7:46), Discussion of the Ranking System (19:49), Discussion of Our Last Place and Second-to-Last Place Books (22:02), Discussion of Our Fourth Place Books (31:51), Discussion of Our Second and Third Place Books (37:54), Discussion of Our First Place Books (54:40), Recommendations for TJR Starter Books (1:06:24), Conclusion (1:09:44).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569/.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com).

Why do so many romance novels not touch on contraception, consent, or STI status in their pages? Why are erotica authors calling including safe sex practices in their books "propaganda"? And which romance novel that was dubbed a "modern classic" goes super STI-negative? This week, Mackenzie and Lily are joined by cultural commentator and writer Ella Dawson to talk all things consent and condoms (and more).

Major episode timestamps: Introduction (0:00), Housekeeping (2:05), Introduction to Main Topic (3:23), Introduction to Ella Dawson (6:48), Question About How Ella Got Started Writing as a Cultural Commentator (8:53), Question About Why We're So Fearful as a Society of Discussing Safer Sex Practices (13:47), Questions about STI Misconception and Destigmatizing Talking About STI Status (19:21), Question About Ella's Work Writing Romance and Erotica (24:40), Questions About How Ella's Thoughts Have Shifted on Writing STIs in Romance Over the Years (27:52), Question About How Consent Comes Up in Romance Novels in a Post-#MeToo World (30:11), Question About Books That Have Good Representation for Safe Sex (39:48), Discussion of Books With Problematic STI Mentions (46:03), Question About Ella's Romance Novel and Other Erotica Work (56:04), Question About Where to Find Ella's Work Online (59:07), Conclusion (1:00:30).

You can get full show notes and episode transcriptions on the Bad Bitch Book Club website: http://badbitchbookclub.com/podcast.

Give us a five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts, and say hi to us at @F2LPodcast on Twitter and Instagram. You can also join the private F2L Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/292095932008569/.

If you want to support Bad Bitch Book Club's initiatives (including this podcast), become a Patreon member: https://www.patreon.com/badbitchbookclub.

Buy all books mentioned on Friends to Lovers: https://bookshop.org/lists/friends-to-lovers-podcast.

Friends to Lovers is a Bad Bitch Book Club podcast hosted by BBBC founder Mackenzie Newcomb and writer, editor, and bestie Lily Herman. Each week, they use books as a jumping off point to talk about sex, relationships, dating, love, romance, and more.

Podcast logo by MKW Creative Co. (https://mkwcreative.co/) and music by Eliza Rose Vera (http://www.elizarosevera.com).