The Just Security Podcast

On Monday, Dec. 4, 2023, the Reiss Center on Law and Security at NYU Law and Just Security co-hosted an expert discussion entitled “Toward a Goldilocks Deal on Section 702 Surveillance Reform.”

This Podcast episode is the audio from that discussion, which was co-moderated by Senior Counsel at Perkins Coie LLP and former Justice Department counterespionage prosecutor and FISA oversight attorney David Aaron and Just Security Co-Editor-in-Chief and former Deputy Legal Adviser to the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President Tess Bridgeman.

The panelists were: Elizabeth (Liza) Goitein the Senior Director of the Liberty & National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice; Andrew McCabe the Former Acting Director and Deputy Director at the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Mary McCord the Executive Director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection at Georgetown University Law Center.

Show Notes:

• David Aaron (@davidcaaron)
• Tess Bridgeman (@bridgewriter)
• Elizabeth (Liza) Goitein (@LizaGoitein)
• Andrew G. McCabe
• Mary B. McCord
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Just Security’s FISA Section 702 coverage
• Reiss Center on Law and Security at NYU School of Law
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Eyes Closed” by Tobias Voigt from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/tobias-voigt/eyes-closed (License code: XTRHPYM1ELYU8SVA)

This week, world leaders, diplomats, climate activists, journalists, and fossil fuel executives will meet in Dubai for the United Nations’ annual Climate Change Conference. While many discussions will build on last year’s COP, where nations agreed to fund loss and damage from climate change, another focus will be on who is sidelined from the discussions.

The United Arab Emirates has reportedly hired an army of public relations experts to help manage its reputation during the two-week event and to keep international attention away from its crackdown on civic space. Meanwhile, some of the world’s largest democracies, including governments that have traditionally championed human rights, lack a clear vision for protecting civic space in the climate talks, even though Indigenous communities, social justice movements, and human rights defenders are at the forefront of fighting climate change.

Joining the show to discuss the role of civil society at COP 28 is Kirk Herbertson. Kirk is a Senior Policy Advisor at EarthRights International, a nonprofit organization that “combines the power of law with the power of people in defense of human rights and the environment.”

Show Notes:

• Kirk Herbertson (@KirkHerbertson)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Kirk’s Just Security article “To Avert Climate Crisis, Democracies Need to Protect Civic Space”
• Just Security’s climate change coverage
• Just Security’s civil society coverage
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “The World Between Us” by Corey Alstad from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/cory-alstad/the-wound-between-us (License code: DBNNNNMVJSCUU65C)

Some of the biggest risks to human rights in the twenty-first century come from governments misusing surveillance technology originally designed to combat counterterrorism. These spyware tools are manufactured around the world, including in the United States, the European Union, China, Israel, and the United Arab Emirates.

The technology is difficult to detect and allows access to a target’s communications, contacts, and geolocation and metadata. It can even delete information or plant incriminating data on a person’s phone. Now, nations are using it to spy on politicians, journalists, human rights activists, lawyers, and ordinary citizens with no links to terrorism.

As a reminder, this is Part 2 of a conversation with Fionnuala Ni Aoláin. Fionnuala recently completed her tenure as the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Human Rights and Counterterrorism.

For nearly six years, she examined global and country counterterrorism practices and how they do or don’t comply with human rights standards. To hear Part 1 of our discussion, including Fionnuala’s insights from her experience documenting the conditions at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in prisons and sprawling camps in Northeast Syria, please tune in to last week’s episode, which you can find in the show notes and on our website.

Show Notes:

• Fionnuala Ní Aoláin (@NiAolainF)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Viola Gienger (@ViolaGienger)
• Part 1 of our conversation with Fionnuala
• Fionnuala and Adriana Edmeades Jones’ Just Security article “Spyware Out of the Shadows”
• Just Security’s Ending Perpetual War Symposium
• Just Security’s counterterrorism coverage
• Just Security’s technology coverage
• The U.N. Special Rapporteur on counter-terrorism and human rights’ website (including reports during Fionnuala's term, which ended Oct. 31)
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Gnome” by Danijel Zambo from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/danijel-zambo/gnome (License code: MIZAQ1JSL9JRTUN8)

More than two decades after the 9/11 attacks, counterterrorism still dominates most security policies and practices around the world, including at the United Nations.

And yet, the problem of terrorism persists around the world – from southwestern Pakistan, to the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel, to the Sahel.

Across the board, nations are failing to address the root causes of extremism.

What might alternative approaches to counterterrorism look like?

Perhaps no one is better equipped to consider the impact of counterterrorism on human rights than Fionnuala Ní Aoláin. This is Part 1 of a special two-part conversation. Please join us next week for Fionnuala’s insights into the human rights implications caused by spyware and personal data collection.

Fionnuala recently completed her tenure as the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Human Rights and Counterterrorism. She was the first U.N. expert to visit the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and issued a landmark report on how Guantanamo deprives both the detainees and the 9/11 victims of the justice they all deserve. She assessed the conditions in prisons and camps in northeast Syria that still hold over 50,000 people more than 5 years after the defeat of the Islamic State. She raised awareness of the role of gender in counterterrorism and of the repressive effect of counterterrorism tactics on civil society, and she enumerated the ever-expanding counterterrorism mandate at the U.N.

Fionnuala is a law professor at the University of Minnesota and at Queens University School of Law in Belfast, Northern Ireland and an executive editor at Just Security.

Show Notes:

• Fionnuala Ní Aoláin (@NiAolainF)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Viola Gienger (@ViolaGienger)
• Part 2 of our conversation with Fionnuala
• Fionnuala’s Just Security article “Rethinking Counterterrorism”
• Just Security's Ending Perpetual War Symposium
• Just Security’s counterterrorism coverage
• Just Security northeast Syria coverage
• Just Security’s Guantanamo coverage
• The U.N. Special Rapporteur on counter-terrorism and human rights’ website (including reports during Fionnuala's term, which ended Oct. 31)
• The Guantánamo Artwork and Testimony of Moath Al-Alwi: Deaf Walls Speak (Alexandra S. Moore and Elizabeth Swanson, Editors)
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Moving” by Brock Hewitt from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/brock-hewitt-stories-in-sound/moving (License code: JIUYKTT0FITX2S4X)

Across the United States, book bans, and attempted book bans, have hit a record high. Driven in part by newly passed state laws, public schools have seen a thirty-three percent increase in banned books.

The vague and subjective language used in these laws leave school boards struggling to figure out exactly what content is prohibited. Some school boards, like the Mason City School District in Iowa, have turned to ChatGPT and Artificial Intelligence to comply with these new state laws.

But, the inconsistency and limitations of AI technology have led to over inclusive results that disproportionately flag content about the experiences of women and marginalized communities, and raise concerns about free speech and censorship.

Joining the show to discuss AI and its effect on book bans is Emile Ayoub.

Emile is counsel in the Brennan Center’s Liberty and National Security Program where he focuses on the impact of technology on civil rights and liberties.

Show Notes:

• Emile Ayoub (@eayoubg)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Emile and Faiza Patel’s (@FaizaPatelBCJ) Just Security article on using AI to comply with book bans
• Just Security’s Artificial Intelligence coverage
• Just Security’s content moderation coverage
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Tunnel” by Danijel Zambo from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/danijel-zambo/tunnel (License code: SBF0UK70L6NH9R3G)

In response to Hamas’ brutal attacks that killed at least 1,400 Israeli civilians and continues with 200 hostages in Hamas control, Israel has imposed a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip. This includes blocking access to electricity, food, and fuel. While Israeli authorities have restored some access to water in southern Gaza the supply remains limited.

For the over 2 million civilians in Gaza, the siege has created dire humanitarian conditions. Hospitals are quickly running out of medical supplies, and the International Committee of the Red Cross recently said that humanitarian organizations will not be able to provide life-saving assistance with the siege in place.

Joining the show to discuss the siege, and how international law applies to it, is Tom Dannenbaum.

Tom is an Associate Professor of International Law at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University where he is also Co-Director of the Center for International Law and Governance. Tom is an expert on international humanitarian law, including siege starvation.

Show Notes:

• Tom Dannenbaum (@tomdannenbaum)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Tom’s Just Security article on the siege of Gaza and the starvation war crime
• Mark Zeitoun’s Just Security article on access to water in Gaza
• Ryan Goodman (@rgoodlaw), Michael Meier (@MWMeier23), and Tess Bridgeman’s (@bridgewriter) expert guidance on the law of armed conflict
• Just Security’s coverage of the Israel-Hamas war
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Broken” by David Bullard from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/david-bullard/broken (License code: OSC7K3LCPSGXISVI)

The Under Secretary of Defense for Policy in the U.S. Department of Defense is one of the biggest – and hardest – jobs in Washington. Colin Kahl served in that role for more than two years. From April 2021 to July 2023, he was the principal adviser to Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin for all matters related to national security and defense policy, oversaw the writing of the 2022 National Defense Strategy, which focused on the “pacing challenge” posed by China, and he led the Department’s response to Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, among other international crises. He also led other major defense diplomacy initiatives, like U.S. efforts to revitalize the NATO alliance.

Kahl has had a long career in government and public service. During the Obama administration, he served as Deputy Assistant to the President and National Security Advisor to then-Vice President Biden. Before that, he served in the Pentagon as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East for nearly three years.

Just Security’s Co-Editor-in-Chief Tess Bridgeman recently sat down with Kahl, who is now a Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Center for International Security and Cooperation, for an exit interview.

Show Notes:

• Colin Kahl (@ColinKahl)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Tess Bridgeman (@bridgewriter)
• Just Security’s China coverage
• Just Security’s Russia-Ukraine war coverage
• Just Security’s artificial intelligence coverage
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Lilac” by “Night Drift” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/night-drift/lilac (License code: CFXEBHMVBA8FXVNC)

Last week, world leaders arrived in New York for the U.N. General Assembly’s High-Level meetings. They debated the response to Russia’s continued full-scale invasion of Ukraine, made some progress on sustainable development, and considered how to regulate artificial intelligence.

Returning to the show to discuss what we learned from the U.N.’s High-Level week is Richard Gowan. Richard is U.N. Director at the International Crisis Group, an independent organization working to prevent wars and shape policies that will build a more peaceful world.

Show Notes:

• Richard Gowan (@RichardGowan1)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Richard’s Just Security article recapping UNGA 78
• Just Security’s U.N. General Assembly coverage
• Just Security’s Russia-Ukraine war coverage
• Just Security’s climate change coverage
• Just Security’s Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) coverage
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Hypotheticals” by “AK” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/ak/hypothetical (License code: ZYWSWAROJNPTCX30)

In 2018, the Supreme Court created a revolution in the Fourth Amendment. In Carpenter v. United States, the Court found that the government needed a warrant to obtain data about the cell phone towers to which a person connected when using their phone. That data can reveal the digital breadcrumbs of a person’s life – including where they went and how long they stayed. But cell phone users give that location data to their phone providers, third-party companies like AT&T and Verizon. Those companies don’t have the legal ability to challenge a government’s request for the user’s data. In fact, the companies often can’t even notify the user about a request for information. This creates a paradox. Cell phone users, the people who have a Fourth Amendment right to challenge the government’s request for information, don’t know the government is requesting it and third-party companies know about the request but can’t challenge it in court.

The third-party paradox has massive implications for privacy rights and raises important questions about how to challenge the government’s request for information that might be protected by the Fourth Amendment.

Joining the show to discuss the third-party paradox and the Fourth Amendment is Michael Dreeben. Michael argued Carpenter and over 100 other cases before the Supreme Court on behalf of the government. He is now a partner at the law firm O’Melveny & Myers, a Distinguished Lecturer from Government at Georgetown University Law Center, and a Lecturer on Law at Harvard Law School.

Show Notes:

• Michael Dreeben
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Resolving Carpenter’s Third-Party Paradox (Part I and Part II)
• Just Security’s Fourth Amendment coverage
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “The Clock is Ticking” by Simon Folwar from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/simon-folwar/the-clock-is-ticking (License code: FY1TG2G1ESDYMSHF)

The U.N. General Assembly’s annual meeting is underway in New York. Leaders from around the world will attend the High-Level Week, which begins on September 18. On the agenda are topics ranging from the continuing response Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, to slow progress on sustainable development, and the looming regulation of artificial intelligence.

Joining the show to discuss what we expect from this year’s U.N. General Assembly meetings is Richard Gowan. Richard is U.N. Director at the International Crisis Group, an independent organization working to prevent wars and shape policies that will build a more peaceful world.

Show Notes:

• Richard Gowan (@RichardGowan1)
• Paras Shah (@pshah518)
• Richard’s Just Security article previewing UNGA 78
• Just Security’s U.N. General Assembly coverage
• Just Security’s Russia-Ukraine war coverage
• Just Security’s climate change coverage
• Just Security’s Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) coverage
• Music: “The Parade” by “Hey Pluto!” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/hey-pluto/the-parade (License code: 36B6ODD7Y6ODZ3BX)
• Music: “Hypotheticals” by “AK” from Uppbeat: https://uppbeat.io/t/ak/hypothetical (License code: ZYWSWAROJNPTCX30)