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The UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast
by Kelly Chase
The UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast is a structured, science-based deep dive into the phenomenon. Grounded enough for skeptics, accessible for newbs, and deeply researched enough for seasoned ufologists. There are no agendas and no sensationalism—just a no-nonsense overview of everything we know so far, so that you can decide what you think for yourself.
New to the UFO topic and don't know where to start?
This podcast was created so that you can start on episode one with no prior knowledge and get up to speed with the most seasoned researchers in the field.
Hosted by Kelly Chase.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-ufo-rabbit-hole-podcast--5746035/support.
Copyright: Copyright Kelly Chase
Episodes
Ep 21: Dr. James Madden [Pt 2]: Unidentified Flying Hyperobject
1h 13m · Published
Today we welcome back Dr. James Madden to the show. As I’m sure you’ll recall, Jim joined us a couple of months ago for a discussion about Plato’s Cave. We also discussed some of his latest work applying the philosophical concept of the umwelt to the UFO phenomenon. And I was really excited to see that that episode has become one of the most listened to episodes of the podcasts, because it’s definitely one of my favorites. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I highly recommend that you go back to that one first. Jim’s work builds on itself, and it will be helpful to lay down the foundation with that episode before moving onto this one.
In this episode, we’ll be moving on to Dr. Madden’s latest work. Over the last few months, in a flurry of articles released through his Substack, Jim has laid out a series of arguments as to the nature of the UFO phenomenon that are, frankly, mind blowing. It’s not over-stating things to say that what Jim has done is to essentially break ufology–and I mean that in the best possible way.
Because, in many ways, it’s been clear to anyone who is really paying attention that the traditional models and ontologies that have dominated modern ufology have needed to break. We began this podcast talking about what the UFO phenomenon might be, and we did a deep dive into the primary hypotheses including extraterrestrial, ultraterrestrial, interdimensional, extraterrestrial, etc. And all of those models are really useful for helping us to push our thinking about what the intelligence behind UFOs may represent. But if we’re being really honest with ourselves, we have to admit that none of them really fit. They come close in some ways, fall short in others, and ultimately leave us feeling like we’re trying to stretch a full-sized sheet over a queen-sized bed.
What we’ve needed–desperately–is a model that would collapse all of those ontological categories and integrate them into a larger, more coherent whole. And I’d argue that what Dr. Madden is postulating with regard to the UFO phenomenon does exactly that. I truly believe that what he is pointing to here is the future of ufology. This work is urgent and critically important for us moving forward.
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DR. JAMES MADDEN’S WORK
The Substack
Articles Referenced In This Episode:
Website
Twitter
OTHER WORK REFERENCED
Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World (Posthumanities) by Timothy Morton
The Third Table by Graham Harman
The Will to Power by Friedrich Nietzsche
Thus Spoke Zarathustra: A Book for Everyone and No One by Friedrich Nietzsche
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
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MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
In this episode, we’ll be moving on to Dr. Madden’s latest work. Over the last few months, in a flurry of articles released through his Substack, Jim has laid out a series of arguments as to the nature of the UFO phenomenon that are, frankly, mind blowing. It’s not over-stating things to say that what Jim has done is to essentially break ufology–and I mean that in the best possible way.
Because, in many ways, it’s been clear to anyone who is really paying attention that the traditional models and ontologies that have dominated modern ufology have needed to break. We began this podcast talking about what the UFO phenomenon might be, and we did a deep dive into the primary hypotheses including extraterrestrial, ultraterrestrial, interdimensional, extraterrestrial, etc. And all of those models are really useful for helping us to push our thinking about what the intelligence behind UFOs may represent. But if we’re being really honest with ourselves, we have to admit that none of them really fit. They come close in some ways, fall short in others, and ultimately leave us feeling like we’re trying to stretch a full-sized sheet over a queen-sized bed.
What we’ve needed–desperately–is a model that would collapse all of those ontological categories and integrate them into a larger, more coherent whole. And I’d argue that what Dr. Madden is postulating with regard to the UFO phenomenon does exactly that. I truly believe that what he is pointing to here is the future of ufology. This work is urgent and critically important for us moving forward.
___________________________
TRY BETTERHELP
This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ RABBITHOLE and get on your way to being your best self.
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"Use my special link zen.ai/rabbit30 and use rabbit30 to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr."
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___________________________
GET THE EPISODE BRIEF
DR. JAMES MADDEN’S WORK
The Substack
Articles Referenced In This Episode:
- UFO Realism and the Uber-Umwelt
- Unidentified Flying Hyperobject
- Magonia as Hyperobject
- The UFO, Religion, and Our Epistemic Vulnerability
Website
OTHER WORK REFERENCED
Hyperobjects: Philosophy and Ecology after the End of the World (Posthumanities) by Timothy Morton
The Third Table by Graham Harman
The Will to Power by Friedrich Nietzsche
Thus Spoke Zarathustra: A Book for Everyone and No One by Friedrich Nietzsche
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Ep 20: An Interview with Dr. Iya Whiteley feat. Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
1h 42m · Published
Today I’m bringing you something really special. A few weeks ago, Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka reached out to connect me with someone she thought I might be interested in interviewing for the podcast. Her name is Dr. Iya Whiteley and she is a space psychologist who is featured in Diana’s upcoming book due out in November entitled, Encounters: Experiences with Nonhuman Intelligences.
Given the respect that I have for Diana and her work, her recommendation alone would have been enough for me to say yes. But the more she shared with me about Dr. Whiteley and her work, it became clear to me that this was an interview that I absolutely had to do.
This conversation touched me deeply, and I hope it speaks to you the way that it spoke to me.
MEET DR. IYA WHITELEY
Dr. Iya Whiteley is a training developer for Astronauts with a background in Clinical Psychology and Cognitive Engineering. She leverages her skills and expertise, combined with her own insights and experiences as a pilot, skydiver, and scuba diver, to design both equipment and training programmes to improve the performance of highly trained professionals in extreme environments, including military pilots and astronauts.
Iya has also worked at the European Astronaut Centre (European Space Agency) in Cologne, Germany and now collaborates with NASA and the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre in Star City, Russia.
Since having her own children, Iya has been using her unique skillset to work on laying the groundwork for a universal “Earth language”. To this end, she has designed high contrast black and white visual books for newborns to tap into their full developmental potential and give them the best possible start on our unique planet Earth.
MEET DR. DIANA WALSH PASULKA
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka is a professor of religious studies and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. She holds a bachelor’s from UC Davis, a master’s from Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from Syracuse University. She is the author of Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory in Catholic Devotional and Popular Culture and American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology, which we will be discussing in this interview.
___________________________
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___________________________
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
DR. IYA WHITELEY LINKS
Contact Dr. Iya Whiteley [Private Practice Website]
Get Dr. Whiteley’s Earth Design Books for Babies
Follow Dr. Iya Whiteley on Twitter
DR. DIANA PASULKA LINKS
American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology
PRE-ORDER: Encounters: Explorations with Extraterrestrial and Other Non-Human Intelligence (Out Nov. 7, 2023)
Follow Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka on Twitter
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Given the respect that I have for Diana and her work, her recommendation alone would have been enough for me to say yes. But the more she shared with me about Dr. Whiteley and her work, it became clear to me that this was an interview that I absolutely had to do.
This conversation touched me deeply, and I hope it speaks to you the way that it spoke to me.
MEET DR. IYA WHITELEY
Dr. Iya Whiteley is a training developer for Astronauts with a background in Clinical Psychology and Cognitive Engineering. She leverages her skills and expertise, combined with her own insights and experiences as a pilot, skydiver, and scuba diver, to design both equipment and training programmes to improve the performance of highly trained professionals in extreme environments, including military pilots and astronauts.
Iya has also worked at the European Astronaut Centre (European Space Agency) in Cologne, Germany and now collaborates with NASA and the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre in Star City, Russia.
Since having her own children, Iya has been using her unique skillset to work on laying the groundwork for a universal “Earth language”. To this end, she has designed high contrast black and white visual books for newborns to tap into their full developmental potential and give them the best possible start on our unique planet Earth.
MEET DR. DIANA WALSH PASULKA
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka is a professor of religious studies and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. She holds a bachelor’s from UC Davis, a master’s from Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from Syracuse University. She is the author of Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory in Catholic Devotional and Popular Culture and American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology, which we will be discussing in this interview.
___________________________
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Use my special link [https://zen.ai/rabbit10] to save 10% at wongopuzzles.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
___________________________
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
DR. IYA WHITELEY LINKS
Contact Dr. Iya Whiteley [Private Practice Website]
Get Dr. Whiteley’s Earth Design Books for Babies
Follow Dr. Iya Whiteley on Twitter
DR. DIANA PASULKA LINKS
American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology
PRE-ORDER: Encounters: Explorations with Extraterrestrial and Other Non-Human Intelligence (Out Nov. 7, 2023)
Follow Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka on Twitter
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
UFO Disclosure News: An Interview with Christopher Sharp of Liberation Times
46m · Published
As predicted, 2023 has already been a massive year for the UFO disclosure movement. As we seemingly gain momentum, and with a fresh round of congressional hearings on UAPs potentially just around the corner, this felt like the perfect moment to dive into the progress made so far.
And there’s no one better for this conversation than Christopher Sharp of the Liberation Times. Chris is an independent journalist hailing from the UK who has consistently been beating the mainstream media to the punch on some of the biggest stories related to UFO disclosure. The nuance and deep investigation that he brings to his work is one of the very few beacons of true journalism in this field. Beyond his work with the Liberation Times, Chris also regularly writes for the Daily Mail.
In this episode Chris shares:
🛸 What he's hearing from his sources about the origins of the mysterious objects shot down in Feb
🛸 The surprising source for the push for disclosure
🛸 What we can expect from upcoming Congressional UFO hearings (and when those might happen)
🛸 The scandal hiding in plain sight that has Congress finally clocking in on the UFO issue
🛸 And more
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GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
FOLLOW CHRIS SHARP & LIBERATION TIMES
Liberation Times Website
Liberation Times Twitter
Liberation Times Patreon
Christopher Sharp Twitter
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
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FOLLOW
Website
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MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
And there’s no one better for this conversation than Christopher Sharp of the Liberation Times. Chris is an independent journalist hailing from the UK who has consistently been beating the mainstream media to the punch on some of the biggest stories related to UFO disclosure. The nuance and deep investigation that he brings to his work is one of the very few beacons of true journalism in this field. Beyond his work with the Liberation Times, Chris also regularly writes for the Daily Mail.
In this episode Chris shares:
🛸 What he's hearing from his sources about the origins of the mysterious objects shot down in Feb
🛸 The surprising source for the push for disclosure
🛸 What we can expect from upcoming Congressional UFO hearings (and when those might happen)
🛸 The scandal hiding in plain sight that has Congress finally clocking in on the UFO issue
🛸 And more
___________________________
GET ZENCASTR
"Use my special link zen.ai/rabbit30 and use rabbit30 to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr."
WONGO PUZZLES
Use my special link [https://zen.ai/rabbit10] to save 10% at wongopuzzles.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
___________________________
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
FOLLOW CHRIS SHARP & LIBERATION TIMES
Liberation Times Website
Liberation Times Twitter
Liberation Times Patreon
Christopher Sharp Twitter
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson: An Interview with Thomas J. Carey
1h 16m · Published
In this episode, I talk to Thomas J. Carey, the co-author of UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson. Along with his co-author, Donald R. Schmitt, Carey has spent over 30 years investigating the Roswell incident and tracing the trail of the materials and bodies that were recovered there all the way to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and beyond. They have published a dozen books on the subject (links below).
Among the many stunning revelations in this episode is the true identity and location of the fabled Hangar 18, the 2 undeniable smoking guns of the Roswell incident, an in-depth account of what became of the infamous “memory metal” recovered at Roswell, and detailed accounts of the non-human pilots of these craft.
___________________________
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GET THE BOOK
Get your copy of UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson by Thomas J. Carey & Donald Schmitt
THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
The Ohio UFO Heritage Conference will be held at the Hope Hotel at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base on May 5th and May 6th, 2023.
For tickets and information: https://ufoheritage.com
THE SPEAKERS
James Fox | Moment of Contact
Bryce Zabel | Need To Know
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka | American Cosmic
Dr. Michael Masters | The Extratempestrial Model
Micah Hanks | Debrief Media
ExoAcademian | Point of Convergence
Jay Christopher King | The Experiencer Group
Kelly Chase | The UFO Rabbit Hole
Phil Ford | Weird Studies
J.F. Martel | Weird Studies
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Among the many stunning revelations in this episode is the true identity and location of the fabled Hangar 18, the 2 undeniable smoking guns of the Roswell incident, an in-depth account of what became of the infamous “memory metal” recovered at Roswell, and detailed accounts of the non-human pilots of these craft.
___________________________
GET ZENCASTR
"Use my special link zen.ai/rabbit30 and use rabbit30 to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr."
WONGO PUZZLES
Use my special link [https://zen.ai/rabbit10] to save 10% at wongopuzzles.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
___________________________
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
GET THE BOOK
Get your copy of UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson by Thomas J. Carey & Donald Schmitt
THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
The Ohio UFO Heritage Conference will be held at the Hope Hotel at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base on May 5th and May 6th, 2023.
For tickets and information: https://ufoheritage.com
THE SPEAKERS
James Fox | Moment of Contact
Bryce Zabel | Need To Know
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka | American Cosmic
Dr. Michael Masters | The Extratempestrial Model
Micah Hanks | Debrief Media
ExoAcademian | Point of Convergence
Jay Christopher King | The Experiencer Group
Kelly Chase | The UFO Rabbit Hole
Phil Ford | Weird Studies
J.F. Martel | Weird Studies
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
The Ohio UFO Heritage Conference: In The Shadow of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
1h 24m · Published
THE CONFERENCE HAS BEEN POSTPONED. NEW DATES WILL BE ANNOUNCED SOON.
For tickets and information: https://ufoheritage.com
THE SPEAKERS
James Fox | Moment of Contact
Bryce Zabel | Need To Know
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka | American Cosmic
Dr. Michael Masters | The Extratempestrial Model
Micah Hanks | Debrief Media
ExoAcademian | Point of Convergence
Jay Christopher King | The Experiencer Group
Kelly Chase | The UFO Rabbit Hole
Phil Ford | Weird Studies
J.F. Martel | Weird Studies
___________________________
GET ZENCASTR
"Use my special link zen.ai/rabbit30 and use rabbit30 to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr."
WONGO PUZZLES
Use my special link [https://zen.ai/rabbit10] to save 10% at wongopuzzles.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
___________________________
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Interludes: Particles by Nobou
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:34 The Ohio UFO Heritage Conference
00:12:42 Meet Conference Co-Chair, Jon Horvath
00:22:20 Meet Dr. Michael Masters
00:32:41 Meet Bryce Zabel
00:57:17 Meet Phil Ford & J.F. Martel from Weird Studies
For tickets and information: https://ufoheritage.com
THE SPEAKERS
James Fox | Moment of Contact
Bryce Zabel | Need To Know
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka | American Cosmic
Dr. Michael Masters | The Extratempestrial Model
Micah Hanks | Debrief Media
ExoAcademian | Point of Convergence
Jay Christopher King | The Experiencer Group
Kelly Chase | The UFO Rabbit Hole
Phil Ford | Weird Studies
J.F. Martel | Weird Studies
___________________________
GET ZENCASTR
"Use my special link zen.ai/rabbit30 and use rabbit30 to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr."
WONGO PUZZLES
Use my special link [https://zen.ai/rabbit10] to save 10% at wongopuzzles.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
___________________________
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY
Get it on Amazon
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Interludes: Particles by Nobou
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:34 The Ohio UFO Heritage Conference
00:12:42 Meet Conference Co-Chair, Jon Horvath
00:22:20 Meet Dr. Michael Masters
00:32:41 Meet Bryce Zabel
00:57:17 Meet Phil Ford & J.F. Martel from Weird Studies
Ep 19: Waking Up Inside The Cave [Pt 1]: Everything You Know Is Wrong
1h 3m · Published
In many ways, our trip down the rabbit hole has been leading us, inevitably, to this episode. It’s in this episode that we reach a decisive inflection point. Nothing will be the same after this—maybe not even you.
Over the previous 18 episodes, I have done my best to make the case, not only that the UFO phenomenon is real, but that the complexity, ubiquity, and unintelligibility of the phenomenon are so great as to suggest that many of our most fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality itself may be incorrect.
This episode is my closing argument in the case of The Phenomenon vs. Consensus Reality. And when it’s done, I hope that you’ll agree with me that it’s time to burn it all down. Or at the very least, I hope you’ll agree that perhaps it’s time to consider some new models of reality that have the potential to reintroduce meaning and intelligibility into our broken world where impossible things won’t stop happening.
In this episode, we’ll begin by talking about what’s broken with our current models including the Big Bang, the hard problem of consciousness, quantum mechanics, and space-time. And we begin to ask, what do our broken models suggest about the nature of the cave that we find ourselves in? And what does all of this have to do with UFOs?
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
Ep 18: An Interview with Dr. James Madden
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: Digital Abyss by Stephen Keech
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Introduction
00:04:03 The “Official Story of Everything”
00:07:00 The Dream of the Cave
00:13:55 Everything You Know Is Wrong
00:19:45 The Big Bang
00:29:28 The Ghost in the Machine
00:37:35 Music Break
00:38:32 The Hard Problem of Consciousness
00:45:52 Quantum Mechanics Breaks Everything
00:55:22 Space-Time Is Doomed
00:57:35 The Emperor Has No Clothes
01:01:25 The Walls of the Cave
Over the previous 18 episodes, I have done my best to make the case, not only that the UFO phenomenon is real, but that the complexity, ubiquity, and unintelligibility of the phenomenon are so great as to suggest that many of our most fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality itself may be incorrect.
This episode is my closing argument in the case of The Phenomenon vs. Consensus Reality. And when it’s done, I hope that you’ll agree with me that it’s time to burn it all down. Or at the very least, I hope you’ll agree that perhaps it’s time to consider some new models of reality that have the potential to reintroduce meaning and intelligibility into our broken world where impossible things won’t stop happening.
In this episode, we’ll begin by talking about what’s broken with our current models including the Big Bang, the hard problem of consciousness, quantum mechanics, and space-time. And we begin to ask, what do our broken models suggest about the nature of the cave that we find ourselves in? And what does all of this have to do with UFOs?
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
Ep 18: An Interview with Dr. James Madden
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: Digital Abyss by Stephen Keech
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Introduction
00:04:03 The “Official Story of Everything”
00:07:00 The Dream of the Cave
00:13:55 Everything You Know Is Wrong
00:19:45 The Big Bang
00:29:28 The Ghost in the Machine
00:37:35 Music Break
00:38:32 The Hard Problem of Consciousness
00:45:52 Quantum Mechanics Breaks Everything
00:55:22 Space-Time Is Doomed
00:57:35 The Emperor Has No Clothes
01:01:25 The Walls of the Cave
Ep 18: An Interview with Dr. James Madden: Philosophy & UFOs
2h 5m · Published
In this episode, I’m bringing you an interview with Dr. James Madden, professor of philosophy at Benedictine University. He is a martial artist, fitness coach, and philosopher with particular interest in the philosophy of mind, aesthetics, philosophy of religion, Aristotelianism, and phenomenology.
If you’ll recall from the last episode, Diana mentioned Dr. Madden as someone who shared her “spooky” interpretation of the Cave. I first met Jim when he was a speaker in one of Diana’s classes over the summer on this subject, and I really enjoyed learning from him. He has a really coherent way of placing the Cave within its proper context both within Plato’s Republic and within its historical context that opens up these ideas in inspiring and challenging ways.
So that’s where we’ll start, with an hour-long deep dive into Plato’s Cave, and what it implies for the nature of both reality and the UFO phenomenon. And then in the second half of the interview, we’ll turn to Dr. Madden’s latest philosophical work with regard to the phenomenon including what Heidegger reveals to us about the life and work of Godfather of Modern Ufology, Jaques Vallee, what Aristotle’s natural theology suggests about the potential nature of non-human intelligence, and how that work is being continued in the modern day by Dr. Jeffrey Kripal of Rice University. And finally, we’ll explore Dr. Madden’s fascinating hypothesis for the origins of the UFO phenomenon through the concept of the “umwelt”.
I hope you all enjoy this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. This is my longest episode to date because we were having such a blast that I completely lost track of time. And when I went back to listen again, there wasn’t anything that I wanted to cut out. If you enjoy wading out into the deep end of the UFO phenomenon, this episode is for you.
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF FOR ALL RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE
FIND MORE OF DR. JAMES MADDEN’S WORK
Dr. James Madden’s Website
Dr. James Madden’s Substack
Online Course: Heidegger’s The Question Concerning Technology
UFO Realism and the Uber-Umwelt
Aristotle, Myth, and Extraterrestrial Intelligences
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: Golden Hour by Jonas Kolberg
If you’ll recall from the last episode, Diana mentioned Dr. Madden as someone who shared her “spooky” interpretation of the Cave. I first met Jim when he was a speaker in one of Diana’s classes over the summer on this subject, and I really enjoyed learning from him. He has a really coherent way of placing the Cave within its proper context both within Plato’s Republic and within its historical context that opens up these ideas in inspiring and challenging ways.
So that’s where we’ll start, with an hour-long deep dive into Plato’s Cave, and what it implies for the nature of both reality and the UFO phenomenon. And then in the second half of the interview, we’ll turn to Dr. Madden’s latest philosophical work with regard to the phenomenon including what Heidegger reveals to us about the life and work of Godfather of Modern Ufology, Jaques Vallee, what Aristotle’s natural theology suggests about the potential nature of non-human intelligence, and how that work is being continued in the modern day by Dr. Jeffrey Kripal of Rice University. And finally, we’ll explore Dr. Madden’s fascinating hypothesis for the origins of the UFO phenomenon through the concept of the “umwelt”.
I hope you all enjoy this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. This is my longest episode to date because we were having such a blast that I completely lost track of time. And when I went back to listen again, there wasn’t anything that I wanted to cut out. If you enjoy wading out into the deep end of the UFO phenomenon, this episode is for you.
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF FOR ALL RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE
FIND MORE OF DR. JAMES MADDEN’S WORK
Dr. James Madden’s Website
Dr. James Madden’s Substack
Online Course: Heidegger’s The Question Concerning Technology
UFO Realism and the Uber-Umwelt
Aristotle, Myth, and Extraterrestrial Intelligences
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
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MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: Golden Hour by Jonas Kolberg
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
1h 38m · Published
In this episode, I’m bringing you an interview with one of my personal heroes, Dr. Diana Walsh Paslka. Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka is a professor of religious studies and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. She holds a bachelor’s from UC Davis, a master’s from Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from Syracuse University. She is the author of Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory in Catholic Devotional and Popular Culture and American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology, which we will be discussing in this interview.
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If you aren’t already familiar with Diana’s work, you’ll definitely want to start with these two episodes before listening to this interview to get the full context of our conversation.
Ep 11: Nazis & UFOs [Pt. 1]: The Emergence Of UFO Lore
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race
GET DR. DIANA WALSH PASULKA’S BOOKS
American Cosmic: UFO’s, Religion Technology
Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory In Catholic Devotional And Popular Culture
MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE
The Question Concerning Technology by Martin Heidegger
What Is Called Thinking? by Martin Heidegger
Discourse On Thinking by Martin Heidegger
I, Product by Jacques Vallee
Society of the Spectacle by Guy Dubord
Republic by Plato
Dr. James Madden
Marie Mutsuki Mockett
2001: A Space Odyssey
Nope
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Intro
00:05:03 How does a scholar of religion end up writing a book about UFOs? [Backstory of American Cosmic]
00:10:57 Why the next big breakthrough in the space program will come from the field of religious studies.
00:14:33 What can we learn from studying Tyler’s protocols?
00:18:14 What should we make of the simplicity of Tyler’s protocols?
00:22:43 What is Tyler communicating with?
00:26:07 What’s going on in the space program?
00:30:25 Civil religion & UFOs
00:34:11 Having a front row seat to the birth of a myth/belief/religion
00:38:15 Diana’s transition from UFO atheist to UFO agnostic
00:43:39 “The Question Concerning Technology” by Martin Heidegger
00:57:36 What does the Monolith in Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey tell us about the relationship between media and technology?
01:04:39 Jordan Peele’s Nope and the relationship between media and belief
01:08:32 Society of the Spectacle
01:13:17 Plato’s Cave
01:24:21 Plato’s Republic & the impossibility of justice
01:26:45 Ontological shock & re-entering the cave
01:29:34 The danger of Technology
01:34:48 What to expect from Diana’s new book
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If you aren’t already familiar with Diana’s work, you’ll definitely want to start with these two episodes before listening to this interview to get the full context of our conversation.
Ep 11: Nazis & UFOs [Pt. 1]: The Emergence Of UFO Lore
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race
GET DR. DIANA WALSH PASULKA’S BOOKS
American Cosmic: UFO’s, Religion Technology
Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory In Catholic Devotional And Popular Culture
MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE
The Question Concerning Technology by Martin Heidegger
What Is Called Thinking? by Martin Heidegger
Discourse On Thinking by Martin Heidegger
I, Product by Jacques Vallee
Society of the Spectacle by Guy Dubord
Republic by Plato
Dr. James Madden
Marie Mutsuki Mockett
2001: A Space Odyssey
Nope
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Intro
00:05:03 How does a scholar of religion end up writing a book about UFOs? [Backstory of American Cosmic]
00:10:57 Why the next big breakthrough in the space program will come from the field of religious studies.
00:14:33 What can we learn from studying Tyler’s protocols?
00:18:14 What should we make of the simplicity of Tyler’s protocols?
00:22:43 What is Tyler communicating with?
00:26:07 What’s going on in the space program?
00:30:25 Civil religion & UFOs
00:34:11 Having a front row seat to the birth of a myth/belief/religion
00:38:15 Diana’s transition from UFO atheist to UFO agnostic
00:43:39 “The Question Concerning Technology” by Martin Heidegger
00:57:36 What does the Monolith in Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey tell us about the relationship between media and technology?
01:04:39 Jordan Peele’s Nope and the relationship between media and belief
01:08:32 Society of the Spectacle
01:13:17 Plato’s Cave
01:24:21 Plato’s Republic & the impossibility of justice
01:26:45 Ontological shock & re-entering the cave
01:29:34 The danger of Technology
01:34:48 What to expect from Diana’s new book
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race
1h 18m · Published
In this episode, we’re discussing one of the most profound transitions in human history–that of our evolution from a terrestrial species to a spacefaring one. And as we examine the history and origins of the space programs in both the United States and the Soviet Union, we discover one of the most remarkable and baffling stories ever told, hiding in plain sight.
To put it simply, many of the fathers of modern space flight were occultists who believed themselves to be in direct communication with non-human intelligences who were helping to guide their work. While their claims sound too extraordinary to even be considered, the startling breadth and innovation of the work that they claim sprang for this paranormal communication makes it difficult not to wonder if perhaps there might have been something to those claims.
We’ll discuss the work of Jack Parsons, an intrepid young rocket scientist and occultist who palled around with the likes of Aleister Crowley, L. Ron Hubbard, and Howard Hughes, whose remarkable life was cut short by his mysterious death at 37. And we’ll also explore the work of Russian Cosmists like Konstantine Tsiolkovsky whose prophetic work seemingly foretold the intricate details of space flight decades before Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space.
And once again, we’ll look at Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka’s phenomenal book American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology clues to whether these occult practices might still be in use among top members of the space program today. And the answers are, frankly, shocking.
In this episode we’ll begin to ask some of the most important questions that will follow us on our journey forward:
What is the occult? What does the occult have to do with UFOs? How is it that so many “impossible” things seem to have a basis in reality? And what do we do when our models of reality stop working?
Welcome back to The UFO Rabbit Hole.
GET THE EPISODE BRIEF
GET AMERICAN COSMIC BY DIANA WALSH PASULKA
READ THE 2022 UFO REPORT - Office of the Director of National Intelligence
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: "Hymn to Pan" by Son of a Priest
To put it simply, many of the fathers of modern space flight were occultists who believed themselves to be in direct communication with non-human intelligences who were helping to guide their work. While their claims sound too extraordinary to even be considered, the startling breadth and innovation of the work that they claim sprang for this paranormal communication makes it difficult not to wonder if perhaps there might have been something to those claims.
We’ll discuss the work of Jack Parsons, an intrepid young rocket scientist and occultist who palled around with the likes of Aleister Crowley, L. Ron Hubbard, and Howard Hughes, whose remarkable life was cut short by his mysterious death at 37. And we’ll also explore the work of Russian Cosmists like Konstantine Tsiolkovsky whose prophetic work seemingly foretold the intricate details of space flight decades before Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space.
And once again, we’ll look at Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka’s phenomenal book American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology clues to whether these occult practices might still be in use among top members of the space program today. And the answers are, frankly, shocking.
In this episode we’ll begin to ask some of the most important questions that will follow us on our journey forward:
What is the occult? What does the occult have to do with UFOs? How is it that so many “impossible” things seem to have a basis in reality? And what do we do when our models of reality stop working?
Welcome back to The UFO Rabbit Hole.
GET THE EPISODE BRIEF
GET AMERICAN COSMIC BY DIANA WALSH PASULKA
READ THE 2022 UFO REPORT - Office of the Director of National Intelligence
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
BECOME A PATRON
GET THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: "Hymn to Pan" by Son of a Priest
Announcements: What To Expect In 2023 [I'm So Excited!]
16m · Published
It's a brand new year, and I have so many exciting updates to share with you all about the podcast—including the fact that you're about to get a WHOLE LOT more episodes! Get all of these updates, including when you can expect episode 16, in this quick bonus episode.
LISTEN TO THE RABBIT HOLE COVERSATIONS
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Also available wherever else you listen to podcasts.
BECOME A PATRON
BUY THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
Twitter
Facebook
MUSIC
Main Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
The UFO Rabbit Hole Conversations Theme: The Uh Experiment by RimskyMusic
LISTEN TO THE RABBIT HOLE COVERSATIONS
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
Also available wherever else you listen to podcasts.
BECOME A PATRON
BUY THE BOOK
FOLLOW
Website
MUSIC
Main Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
The UFO Rabbit Hole Conversations Theme: The Uh Experiment by RimskyMusic
The UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast has 55 episodes in total of non- explicit content. Total playtime is 59:40:46. The language of the podcast is English. This podcast has been added on February 22nd 2023. It might contain more episodes than the ones shown here. It was last updated on April 21st, 2024 16:43.
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