Edgy Ideas

This conversation goes deep into an unplanned examination of the troubles of the world and arises from these to explore the changing workplace and how we reinvent ourselves.
Susan is a Jew who lives in London, and she describes her experience with both the rise of anti-Semitism and the sadness at what is happening in Gaza, as well as her deep desire for justice and peace for Israeli, Jewish, and Palestinian people. She recently returned from visiting Israel and then Poland for the March of the Living 2024 to remember the Holocaust. Simon and Susan share how even talking about these issues seems dangerous and yet so necessary as the world becomes more divided.
The podcast returns to the theme of reinventing ourselves and the changing nature of the workplace. Susan shares a tale from her book reflecting on the need for a much more holistic understanding of the world and ourselves within it.
We can easily see ourselves and others in partial ways, which doesn’t allow the full expression of our shared humanity. Simon reads a beautiful passage at the end of Susan’s book, called On Transience, drawing on Freud's 1916 essay.
This conversation is rich and touches on our deep humanity. Enjoy!
Bio
Susan Kahn is a business psychologist, a speaker, and an academic. She is a chartered psychologist, coaching psychologist, and supervisor with the British Psychological Society and a Fellow of the Association of Business Psychologists. She works as an executive coach, consultant, mediator, and observer of working life.
She has a particular interest in the behaviour of people at work and below-surface dynamics in organisations. She studied organisational consultancy using psychoanalytic methods at Tavistock and did her PhD at Birkbeck, University of London, where she teaches coaching psychology and established the Masters in Coaching Psychology. She also works as a group relations consultant. She uses psychoanalytic observation as a research method and has written about the psychoanalysis of endings and resilience. She is a board member of
This Can Happen: empowering workplace mental health, ISPSO and OPUS.
Her latest book is called Reinvent Yourself: Psychological Insights That Will Transform Your Work Life . Purchase it here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reinvent-Yourself-Psychological-Insights-Transform/dp/1398613312
Get in touch: www.drskahn.com

Liz Rivers shares her rich engagement with nature and how it informs her work in leadership and as a coach. The seasonal organisation refers back to pre-modern times and draws on the Celtic Calendar as a way of connecting our workplaces with the rhythms and cycles of the natural world. The Celtic calendar marks times in the year when the light changes, when we have the shortest and longest days, which in turn mark the beginning and end of seasons. Life and work used to be organised around these seasonal changes, whereas in the process of urbanisation and industrialization, the clock took over and work was organised without reference to nature or its seasonal rhythms. Liz uses the seasonal organisation as part of her work to support women’s leadership in her Purpose Power Presence programmes delivered with Hetty Einzig. This training works with the body and the imagination to find space for something other than the constant, driven, male-dominated leadership styles we still find in today’s workplace. Simon and Liz reflect on how men would respond to this ‘women's course’ and how work and the environment can be more integrated in general. Enjoy this exploration of the seasonal organisation.
Bio
Liz Rivers is a former commercial lawyer turned leadership coach and co-founder with Hetty Einzig ofPurpose Power Presence: Leadership Programmes for Women.
Disillusioned with the adversarial world of commercial litigation, Liz jumped ship and became the first woman to be accredited as a commercial and organisational mediator in the UK.
In her personal life, Liz's passions have included Chi Kung, wild swimming, storytelling, body psychotherapy, camping, and wilderness retreats. She has studied and worked with the Celtic Calendar for over a decade and found it a powerful tool for women leaders to align with their rhythms and create more humane workplaces.

In this fascinating and deeply insightful podcast, Chantal and Brad reflect on the meaning of disappearance. Chantal comes from Mexico where over 100,000 people have disappeared through violence and kidnapping. Human disappearance leaves a hole, an empty space, a void to which our human response is often one of confusion, desperation, pain, loss, anger and even guilt.
Chantal is an artist working with abstract art, she is self-taught and learnt her craft from her artisanal family and the small Mexican community she grew up in. Chantal and Brad discuss how art, and abstract art in particular can speak to us when language fails us. In this wide-ranging discussion, Brad shares his philosophical insights into violence and disappearance in particular, saying that it is not easy to disappear somebody, and to disappear thousands takes a huge organisational effort, and asks what lies behind this?
Brad also discusses the Rhonda valley and the disappearance of jobs, of community, of a vibrant culture after the coal mines were shut without anything to replace the jobs; in his most recent book, he describes how these communities have disappeared from the view of wider society in the UK. Disappearance of humans is one thing, another form of disappearance that is finally entering our collective awareness is the disappearance of nature and the loss of biodiversity; how do we make sense of that?
Each of us has a relationship to disappearance, for some, it is a cultural phenomenon shared by collective people due to drug cartels, war or state terrorism that leads to many being disappeared. For others, it can be a personal story. We hope this podcast stirs your thinking and raises awareness of the meaning of disappearance in our current world.

Bio
Chantal Meza is an abstract painter living and working in the United Kingdom. Her work has been featured in exhibitions, auctions and biennials in prominent Museums and Galleries in Mexico, the United Kingdom, Paraguay and Germany. She has delivered international lectures and workshops at reputable universities such as Harvard University, École Normale Superiéure, Goethe Univeristät, and Goldsmiths University among others, as well as being commissioned publicly and privately. Her work has received the support of grants, public recognition and awards of prominent institutions in the cultural sector. More recently, her first edited volume “State of Disappearance” was published by McGill Queens University Press.
Professor Brad Evans is a political philosopher, critical theorist, and writer, who specializes in the problem of violence. He is the author of over 20 books and edited volumes, including most recently State of Disappearance (with Chantal Meza, McGill Queens University Press: 2023) & Ecce Humanitas: Beholding the Pain of Humanity (Columbia University Press, 2020). He previously led a dedicated columns/series on violence in both the New York Times and the Los Angeles Review of Books. Brad currently serves as Chair of Political Violence and Aesthetics at the University of Bath, United Kingdom, where is he the founder and director of the Centre for the Study of Violence. His latest book How Black Was My Valley: Poverty and Abandonment in a Post-Industrial Heartland will soon be published by Repeater/Penguin Random House in April 2024.

This podcast reflects on my extensive and diverse work journey, which has been profoundly enriching. Yet, it transcends a mere work biography; it delves into an emotional journey shared. Work occupies a significant portion of our lives, yet we seldom reflect on how our experiences in the workplace impact and shape us.
Every time I recount this story to a live audience, I am surprised by how it evolves. The adage "you can't step into the same river twice" holds. My unconscious seems to guide me as I speak, causing me to omit certain details or emphasize aspects that typically escape my attention. Sometimes, I even find myself becoming emotional at specific points that resonate deeply. This story has a life of its own, continually revealing new insights about my past and present self as I revisit it.
We all have countless stories to tell about ourselves, and I've recounted my own tale, "what authored the author," numerous times, both in writing and in various settings. Interestingly, this particular narrative elicits a strong emotional response in people, a fact that initially caught me off guard. However, I've come to realize that this is precisely the essence of the story. It's not about me; rather, it serves as a mirror, reflecting something back to the reader. What it evokes, stirs, and ignites within you is significant; it prompts the question, "what authored you?"
Bio
Simon Western is a leading academic and practitioner in coaching and leadership, and the author of several books, reports, and academic papers. He is the host of the Edgy Ideas Podcast and the author behind the Re-enchanting Our Worlds newsletter on Substack. Simon has also developed and led the organisation’s popular courses. He is the founder of the Eco-Leadership Institute which runs coach training and leadership programmes and is a think-tank to create a more adaptive, ethical and impactful leadership approach for today's precarious-interdependent age.

Sudarshan and Shweta are key leadership figures in Bal Raksha Bharat (also known as Save the Children India). Sudarshan is CEO and Shweta is Head of Governance & Organisation Development.
In this podcast, they generously share their thoughts and experiences. Their approach is inspiring and enlightening, and it aligns closely to the Eco-Leadership Institute approach. They focus on shifting power from the centre to the edges. Their humanitarian work aims to create capacity, but not only through raising funds from external resources. They see the recipients of the aid they provide as key to creating capacity, as the children and citizens they support are full of potential that they aim to resource. They also look for long term solutions and focus on moving away from crisis reactions, and reliance on external funding, to build sustainable capacity through civic and state collaboration. They discuss some of their pioneering approaches to humanitarian aid and development and what is striking is the emphasis on deep caring and a holistic approach. Sudarshan and Shweta have to constantly adapt to the fast changing landscape. Key to their work is what we call LEDGE approaches - leadership from the edge, and they focus on bringing people from the edge to make their contribution heard and relevant. Whilst they face many challenges, they see their ecosystems are filled with resources. At the heart of their work is hope, fuelled by a collaborative and generous mindset.
Sudarshan is a strong advocate of developing a learning culture in the workplace. He shares insights from Bal Raksha Bharat’s most recent annual ‘Knowledge & Learning Exchange Week’ which focussed on ‘failing intelligently’; to remove any blame culture and learn from both the successful and unsuccessful initiatives. India is a place of diversity and challenges for them, but from this podcast you can feel the power of their hope and the energy they have to create a good society.
Bios:

Sudarshan Suchi is the Chief Executive Officer of Bal Raksha Bharat (also known as Save the Children India). As a staunch believer in participatory processes, Sudarshan believes in co-creation and inclusion of all voices within design and action. Passionate about building self-reliance and creating livelihood opportunities, he has himself dabbled in creating and promoting eco-friendly farming practices.
Although he graduated in Philosophy, Law and completed Masters in Participation Power and Social Change, Sudarshan admits that most of his education happened outside the classroom. Over the past three decades, he has held leadership positions with eminent organisations like Reliance Foundation, Reliance Life Sciences, and National Dairy Development Board (NDDB). He has also taught at Institute of Rural Management, Anand (IRMA) and is part of Academic Council of IIHMR’s Rural Management Program.
As CEO of BRB, Sudarshan believes in creating a living organisation that is built on its people and their ability to be vulnerable, embrace shortfalls productively and aim towards improvement. His vision is to build and grow the movement for child rights in India, wherein children have a voice and agency, and participate as active citizens of the country.
Shweta Malhotra is a seasoned professional with 17 years of dedicated service at Bal Raksha, Bharat (Save the Children India), currently serving as the Head of Governance & Organisation Development. In this role, she adeptly oversees the Board, CEO’s office, and plays a pivotal role in enhancing the organization’s adaptability in an ever-changing dynamic environment. A true advocate for fostering a human-centric culture, Shweta thrives on meaningful connections with people.
Her professional narrative includes a fascinating chapter as a freelance fashion designer, where she successfully ran her own label. Beyond her professional pursuits, she finds joy in travelling with her family and relishes the simple pleasures of snuggling up with a good book and a cup of coffee.

Chloe is co-director of Lighthouse Relief a small NGO set up 8 years ago in Greece to respond to the influx of more than 900,000 refugees arriving in Greece from Syria at that time. Chloe shares her experience and the changing nature of the challenges they face. Initially, Greece was a very welcoming country, as Greek citizens personally and collectively identified with their own histories of forced migration in the 1920s. However, the wars in the Middle East that led to the refugee crisis coincided with the collapse of the Greek economy during the financial crisis, impoverishing many many Greeks. Rightwing politicians exploited this vulnerability and gained a stronger foothold in Greek politics.
Today refugees and asylum seekers are much more diverse coming from many different countries, and often arriving in desperate and vulnerable conditions. Chloe explains how their previous support strategies were being undermined through policy and law changes, such as restricting access for NGOs from entering refugee camps where they had been supporting children for the past 7 years, or preventing them from going onto beaches to support the rescue of asylum seekers in trouble at sea.
Many organisations espouse being agile these days, and many could learn from small NGOs like Lighthouse Relief who pivot and adapt to the fast-changing conditions they have to work in. Chloe shares how the NGO teams support each other to do this work and Simon and Chloe end the podcast reflecting on the importance of what it means to have a home. This is an important and powerful podcast to begin 2024.
Often we question if the money we give to charity goes directly to the people impacted and who need the support. Chloe's NGO is small but has a big impact on so many lives; please give to support Chloe and the Lighthouse Relief team doing their vital work.
You can donate here: www.lighthouserelief.org/donate
Bio :
Chloe draws on her professional experiences in the arts, journalism, and at human rights organizations to run partnerships and advocacy for Lighthouse Relief. As Co-Director, she helps drive its strategic direction and navigate the changing humanitarian landscape.
Previously, Chloe has written about art and cultural diplomacy for publications including The New York Times and served as United Nations correspondent for several media outlets, reporting through the lens of gender equality. Her engagement with refugees and the issues affecting them in Greece began while reporting from camps near the North Macedonian border in 2016. She holds a B.S. in Foreign Service from Georgetown University and a M.A. in International Affairs from Sciences Po, Paris.

This podcast focuses on Richard Carter's work and life as a vicar at St Martin-in-the-field, a bustling church in Trafalgar Square London, known for its work on social justice and in particular its work with the homeless. Richard and Simon met when Simon was experiencing a deep personal trauma and loss. Richard became a very important spiritual support and friend during the early days of grief. Previous to his work in London Richard spent 15 years in the Solomon Islands as a chaplain to, then member of, the Melanesian Brotherhood, an Anglican monastic community. During this time Richard too experienced a deep traumatic loss when 7 brothers of his community who were working for peace were taken hostage and killed. Richard and Simon discuss their response to their grief, highlighting the hope and grace that transcends grief, enabling new life to emerge.
Richard shares the impact of the move from a quiet island in the Pacific Ocean with no electricity, to the heart of busy, noisy London. Over the years he wondered about returning to a life of more silent prayer, yet realized that he had a calling to build community and offer stability through his work in London. On a retreat, he found spiritual clarity and the words came to him… ‘The city is my monastery’. Seeking community, it was homeless people, particularly international refugees who became an essential part of his community. He founded the Nazareth Community to respond to people's spiritual need for community, silence and sanctuary and to offer service when living in the bustling city and the Nazareth Community welcomes members from all walks and experiences of life. Richard shares the joys of multi-cultural London, his life is enriched by diversity, the nature found in London’s parks, and the gifts he receives from a life of service to others.
Get Richard's book here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Letters-Nazareth-Contemplative-Journey-Home/dp/1786224917
Bio
Richard Carter is Associate Vicar at St Martin’s where he has been working and living as a priest since 2006 on the edge of Trafalgar Square. Richard has special responsibility for the education and formation programme, pastoral care and outreach to those facing homelessness. Richard is the founder of the Nazareth Community, whose members gather from everyday life to seek God in contemplation and to live compassionately and generously building a community of welcome on the edge of Trafalgar Square. He also started and coordinates the International Group which provides community and support for migrants and asylum seekers and those with no recourse to public funds. He is the author of The City is My Monastery: A Contemporary Rule of Life, Canterbury Press and editor of Who is My Neighbour? The Global and Personal Challenge (SPCK, 2018). His latest book Letters from Nazareth: A Contemplative Journey Home (Canterbury Press 2023) are letters of encouragement for our times, and how contemplation and reflection lead to resolute action. Richard leads many retreats and quiet days and is a regular contributor to BBC Radio 4’s Daily Service.
Before living in London Richard was a member of the Melanesian Brotherhood a simple community working for peace in the South Pacific. His experiences there are described in In Search of the Lost (Canterbury Press 2006), a moving first-hand account of loss and grief after the violent deaths of seven members of his religious order.

In this deeply insightful podcast, Niall shares findings and thoughts from his research and study of the conflict in Northern Ireland, published in his recent book Deniable Contact: Back-Channel Negotiation in Northern Ireland . Niall has spoken to key actors in the peace process, and in particular has sought to understand the conflict by seeking data from the back-channel negotiators, those courageous people who put their lives at risk and whose mediation work was done in secret and without acknowledgement. Niall found a rich store of historical evidence, including the private papers of key Irish Republican leaders, and the papers of Brendan Duddy, the intermediary who acted as the primary contact between the IRA and the British government on several occasions.
Simon shares his experience of meeting Brendan Duddy after inviting him to a Faith in Leadership conference when working at the Tavistock Clinic. Brendan attended Tavistock group relations conferences and was able to utilise this learning in his mediation work, identifying the essential issues with great clarity. At great personal risk, Brendan worked to bridge the unbridgeable divide and bring two sides together in secret negotiations.
Niall shares his thoughts on what learning can emerge from the Northern Irish peace process and warns about what cannot be generalised. This is a truly fascinating discussion.
Get Niall's book here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deniable-Contact-Back-Channel-Negotiation-Northern/dp/0192894765
Short Bio

Niall Ó Dochartaigh is a Professor of Political Science and Sociology and Director of the MA in Public Policy at the University of Galway. He has published extensively on the Northern Ireland conflict, on peace negotiations and on territorial conflict. His publications include Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the Irish Troubles and the co-edited books Political Violence in Context and Dynamics of Political Change in Ireland: Making and Breaking a Divided Island . His most recent book, Deniable Contact: Back-channel Negotiation in Northern Ireland , published by Oxford University Press in 2021, was awarded the Brian Farrell book prize of the Political Studies Association of Ireland and was shortlisted for the 27th Christopher Ewart-Biggs Literary Prize.

Napoleon is back in the cinemas, and apparently, there are more movies made about him than any other person, he is third on the list of most books written about a person (behind Jesus and Hitler).
So what is the allure and what can we learn from this Mesianic leadership figure?
To dig deep into these questions Jonathan Gosling and Stephanie Jones join me as guests, bringing their insights from their book on Napoleonic Leadership, a study of power which you can download from here www.napoleonic-leadership.com
This is a rich conversation, exploring ideas of charisma, power, and patronage, and asking questions about how certain contexts create the conditions for different leadership approaches. We explore the object of desire and how charisma is not just about having an extrovert personality, but how a leader harnesses the desires of a nation to their own desires, and most importantly takes action.
Jonathan reflects on this active element of leadership and how tactics and power, mixed with the drive to act were a big part of Napoleon's leadership approach. If you've watched the movie, listen to the analysis and review if you are interested in leadership, this is a must-listen anyway.
Bios
Prof Jonathan Gosling

Jonathan acts in an advisory capacity for leadership-related projects in commercial, governmental and activist organisations. He has been Professor of Leadership at renowned universities around the world; is a key-note speaker on leadership, power and change; is principal investigator for complex research projects; and coordinates Pelumbra’s growing portfolio of programs. His writing covers a spectrum from scholarly philosophical articles on ethics and wisdom, to applicable lessons drawn from historical leaders such as Napoleon Bonaparte and Horatio Nelson.
Jonathan was recently appointed as a Visiting Professor at the Bristol Leadership and Change Centre (BLCC) at the University of the West of England and runs his own consulting company, Pelumbra Ltd.
You can find out more about Jonathan at: www.jonathangosling.com
Dr Stephanie Jones

Associate Professor of Organizational Behavior at Maastricht School of Management, having graduated with a PhD from University College London, and a Bachelor’s degree (in History) from the London School of Economics. Dr Jones has authored over 25 full-length internationally-published books on business and management – three of them with Professor Jonathan Gosling. She teaches MBA students across the world, especially courses on leadership, culture and change. Her teaching locations include Kuwait, Egypt, Yemen, China, Vietnam, Peru, Surinam, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and several African countries. With a background managing businesses in recruitment, consulting, and training operations in China, India, the Middle East and Australia, Dr Jones gained extensive experience in the corporate sector before returning to academe a decade ago. She is still active in consulting and training. Dr Jones also supervises student theses, at Doctoral, Masters and Diploma levels, assessing and evaluating theses around the world. Napoleonic Leadership: A Study in Power is her third book with Professor Gosling, the others being Nelson’s Way: Leadership Lessons from the Great Commander (2005, published by Nicholas Brealey) and Key Concepts in Leadership (2012).

In this episode, the iconic and world-renowned management expert Henry Mintzberg shares his wisdom on issues of management, organisations and how society needs rebalancing. More than this, Henry generously reflects on his own working methods and approaches, which gives a fascinating insight into his success.
When asked by Simon how he sees things that others don’t see, Henry points to his hero, the boy in the Hans Christian Anderson story who told the truth to the crowd that the emperor was naked. This is Henry’s perceptive gift, to see what others don’t see, or what they don’t want to see.
His first success was the book, 'The Nature of Managerial Work'. Henry observed what 5 CEOs actually did at work. This research found that the widely accepted idea that the manager's role was to plan, organise, coordinate & control, was false. By setting out what they actually did, Henry’s observations had a major impact on how we think about
management. Henry doesn't think he is particularly creative, nor is he a contrarian as some claim, he believes he is perceptive and reports what he sees. Much of Henry’s management education approach places observation at the heart of the work; Henry quotes the baseball coach Yogi Berra, who said, ‘You can observe a lot just by watching’.
Alongside his strength of perception, his other self-identified strength is to be able to reframe. He reframed strategy from being an exercise of future planning to learning and emergence, and he reframed management education as social learning.
Henry strongly challenges the MBA as “training the wrong people, in the wrong ways with the wrong consequences”. Henry believes management is a mixture of art, science and craft, and yet the MBA focuses only on the science. Challenged to address this deficit in
management education, Henry alongside colleague Jonathan Gosling and others, created the International Masters Program for Managers, which aimed to rethink management training, placing learning from practice, and learning from each other at the heart of this work.
Rebalancing society is Henry’s continuing passion, where he realises that we are stuck on thinking about two sectors, how the private and public work, but a vital third sector sits outside the other two, which he calls the plural sector. This is made up of those organisations, not private, or public i.e. NGOs, foundations, universities, charities, community groups, non-profits, etc. The plural sector is a vital part of society, and we are presently way out of balance. Henry’s latest book is titled Understanding Organisations…Finally!
This is a deeply insightful podcast that we are sure you will both learn from and enjoy!
Short Bio

Henry Mintzberg is a writer and educator, mostly about managing originations, developing managers, and rebalancing societies (his current focus). After receiving his doctorate from the MIT Sloan School of Management, he has made his professional home in the Desautels Faculty of Management at McGill University in Montreal, where he sits in the Cleghorn Chair of Management Studies, with extensive stints along the way in England and France. He has authored 21 books which have earned him 21 honorary degrees and an officership in the Order of Canada. He publishes a regular blog, a collection of which was published as Bedtime Stories for Managers. He co-founded the International Masters Program for Managers (impm.org) and the International Masters for Health Leadership (mcgill.ca/imhl) as well as CoachingOurselves.com, all novel initiatives for managers to learn together from their own experience. More of his work can be found on mintzberg.org.
Photo credit: Lisa Mintzberg (2019)