Cider Chat

The Vodraska Brothers Chris & Matt of Bent Ladder

In the midst of a rich farming legacy emerged Bent Ladder Cider and Wine, based in Doylestown Ohio. Chris and younger brother Matt Vodraska are following in their father Dale’s footsteps. Chris is the orchardist and viticulturist and Matt is the cidermaker. The farm is the story.

Dating back to 1995 their father Dale was eyeing farmland that was by all accounts destine for development. In 2004, he “finally wore down the seller” as his sons put it and bought the 128 acre farm. Today there are 3-4 acres of vineyards and 30-40 acres of orchards. The site hosts both the Bent Ladder production area and stunning tasting room and Rittman Orchards & Farm Market.

In the Cider Chat with Chris and Matt

• The Vodraska Family’s back story to present day
• The orchards,
  • Size, terrain, soil typeNumber of apple varieties
  • Orchard practices
• Kazakstan and Krygzstan scion wood graftings at Bent Ladder
  • Is this Malus Sieversii?
    • Up coming ciders with these apples
• Ciders at Bent Ladder
  • At the Tasting Room find draft, flights and glasses of select ciders
• Heritage Ciders in 750ml
  • Heriloom
  • Farmstead
  • Rose Gold – mostly Redfield in wine barrels
  • Black Gold a single varietal Gold Rush
  • Russet
  • EverCrisp Cider
• Cidermaking practices
• The tasting room

Contact Bent Ladder

• Website:https://bentladder.com/
• Rittman Orchard & Farm Store:https://rittmanorchards.com/
  • Find the Apple Chart that Chris Vodraska has been compiling at this page:https://rittmanorchards.com/apple-chart/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Dawes Arboretum
• Dr. Diane Miller
• CiderCon 2024January 15-19th, 2024 Portland Oregon
• Artisans by Cider Summit| Portland, Oregon January 20, 2024
• Oregon Cider WeekJanuary 13-20th, 2024
• Totally Cider Tours– France – listen to past episodes and get on thewait list for the 2024 tour!

Saint Lawrence Nurseries is a specialized tree nursery in New York state, renowned for its expertise in cold-hardy fruit and nut trees with a committment to sustainable and organic practices. The nursery, which was originally founded in the 1920s by Fred L. Ashworth of Heuvelton, NY, was initially more of a hobby and experimental station for Ashworth. Bill MacKentley met Fred in 1971 and they developed a strong, almost familial relationship. After Fred’s death in 1977, Bill and his wife Diana purchased the land in Potsdam, NY, where Fred had done much of his grafting and breeding. In 1981, they produced the first official St. Lawrence Nurseries catalog.

For 34 years, the MacKentleys cultivated Saint Lawrence Nurseries into a unique and well-loved business, carrying on Fred Ashworth’s passion for growing and propagating fruits and nuts suitable for northern climates.

The MacKentley, were planning their retirement and phasing out their business around 2015. Connor Hardiman who began working at Saint Lawrence Nurseries years earlier stepped in to take over rather than allowing the nursery to close. He and his wife Alyssa are the new stewards of Saint Lawrence Nurseries and are helping to herald in a new era for the Nurseries.

Do note that many refer to Saint Lawrence Nurseries as SLN.

The Ups and Downs of Climate and Test Winters

Citing from a Cornell University study for 1981, that stated the the the previous 40 years had been the best years of agriculture (good weather patterns) in the world. Of particular note is that moving forward from 81 onward, one can now expect that the climate was returning to normal. Note that this was serval years before climate change was being discussed to the degree that it is today.

Says Bill, “We have got to get our act together [in regards to climate change].

Who is Fred L. Ashworth

Born in 1898, Ashworth studied the trees that survived the 1938 kill off of apples and studied them very closely. He began the nursery in the 1920s. He also worked with nut trees, potatoes and inspired Bill’s career at Saint Lawrence Nurseries.

Role Models in Research

• Dr. Elaine Ingham – research on the soil and the food web – find out more athttps://www.soilfoodweb.com/
• Paul Stamets –https://paulstamets.com/
• Dr. Christine Jones – soil ecologisthttps://soillearningcenter.com/expert/christine-jones/

Contact Saint Lawrence Nurseries

Connor Hardiman is now the steward of the Nurseries. Find his contact below and reach out to Connor to contact Bill.

• Website:https://www.slngrow.com/
• Address:325 Rt 345, Potsdam,NY13676
• eMail:[email protected]

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• CiderCon 2024January 15-19th, 2024 Portland Oregon
• Artisans by Cider Summit| Portland, Oregon January 20, 2024
• Oregon Cider WeekJanuary 13-20th, 2024
• Totally Cider Tours– France – listen to past episodes and get on thewait list for the 2024 tour!

Meet Chris Rylands of Renaissance Orchards

First there was Cider Supply and then Chris founded Renaissance Orchards with his wife Melinda. This move was a natural progression of a series of events that include resources needed for making a keeved cider and the thirst for a particular style of cider.

The orchards and the Rylands are based in Ferndale a town just south of the Canadian border in Washington state.

In this Cider Chat with Chris of Renaissance

• What happened to Cider Supply?
• Why French style ciders?
• The orchards at Renaissance
  • number of apple varieties and pear
• Products
  • cider
  • scion

Spotlight on Single Varietal Ciders

Hear how Chris dug into 16 cider specific apples to understand the best blending practices for cidermaking. Each label shows:

• a picture of the specific apple
• charts that apple’s
  • tannin
  • aromatics
  • acidity
  • astringent
  • sweetness
  • phenolics
• The origin of the apple, including location
• How to use – best as a blender or as a single variety cider

Contact for Renaissance Orchards

• Website:https://renaissanceorchards.com/

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• CiderCon 2024January 15-19th, 2024 Portland Oregon
• Artisans by Cider Summit| Portland, Oregon January 20, 2024
• Oregon Cider WeekJanuary 13-20, 2024
• Totally Cider Tours– France – listen to past episodes and get on thewait list for the 2024 tour!

Author Daniel J. Bussey's "The Illustrated History to Apples in the United States and Canada"

The Illustrated History of Apples in the United States and Canada isa seven-volume set of books that documents the history of apples in North America written by Daniel J. Bussey. The book was edited by Kent Whealy and published in 2016 by JAK KAW Press LLC.

The set covers over 16,000 apple varieties, including nearly 10,000 synonyms and 1,400 watercolor paintings.Each volume is between 500 and 600 pages long and weighs 32 pounds (14.515 kg).

In 2018 this compendium received the Literary Award by the Council of Botanical and Horticultural libraries.

Dan was inspired by Fred Lape’s bookApples and Man. Another key literature source wasJohn Ashton Warner’s American Pomology(1867). The bibliography with line drawings of apples resulted in developing links with a network of book dealers and a rather exhaustive delving into historic documents, that predated the internet, right across the USA in the archives of fruit and horticulture societies.

In this Chat with Dan Bussey

• Dan’s journey to apples
• What propelled Bussey to write this book?
• How he gathered the info for researching this topic
• What readers can expect to find in the book
• How to use the book
  • Why the synonyms are important in this series.
• How many apples in the book – how many apples known today (worldwide)
• Favorite stories from writing the book
• Favorite apples?

Contact Daniel J. Bussey

Go to the contact page for JAK KAW Press https://www.jakkawpress.com/order

Mention in this Cider Chat

• New England Botanical Orchard at Tower Hill– Massachusetts
• CiderCon 2024January 15-19th, 2024 Portland Oregon
• Artisans by Cider Summit| Portland, Oregon January 20, 2024
• Oregon Cider WeekJanuary 13-20, 2024
• Totally Cider Tours– France – listen to past episodes and get on thewait listfor the 2024 tour!
• https://ciderchat.com/podcast/338french1/
• https://ciderchat.com/podcast/339bustour2/

Discover the Apple Grand-mères/Grandmothers of North America

Todd Little-Siebold (Ph.D.) spoke at New York Apple Camp (2023) on a presentation titled the "Three Grandmothers" or Grand-mères in French. The sub title is "We have to reframe how we think about the origins of American Apple".

Todd is a professor of history and Latin American studies at the College of the Atlantic based in Bar Harbor Maine. As such this presentation is academic in nature and inspires both present day pomologist and apple fans of today and tomorrow to continue to trace the ancestral roots of the apple. Enjoy this exploration in to the continuing research behind the origins of apples.

The “French” Grandmothers or Grand-mère

• Le grand- mère: Rienette Franche (Grise or Grauwe)
• Unknown 13
• Reinette a longue (Queue or Reinette a la long Queue)
• Calville Rouge

Understand (French) history to understand American Apples

This research requires looking at genetics and early settlement of French explores long before any English explorers showed up on North America.

Additional topics covered in this presentation:

• When and where, were the French (apple) ancestors brought to America?
• The early settlements on North America
• Bay of Funday the first orchard planted in 1604
• 4,000 French farmers in the Mississippi Valley in 1700s
• The Dutch impact of American apples
• What about the pilgrims? Didn’t they bring apples to America?
• Native American’s impact on apples in America
• Genetics provides some evidence, but still looking for missing links of why English apples aren’t showing up.

Contact Todd Little-Seibold

• eMail: mailto:[email protected]
• Website: https://www.coa.edu/live/profiles/1136-todd-little-siebold/templates/details/faculty.php

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• CiderCon 2024 January 15-19th, 2024 Portland Oregon
• Portland, Oregon January 20, 2024 Artisan Cider Summithttp://www.cidersummitnw.com/artisans

Catching up with Michelle McGrath CEO of the ACA

CiderCon 2024 takes place in Portland, Oregon, making it the perfect time to chat with the American Cider Association's CEO Michelle McGrath. The Northwest Cider Association is also involved helping with the cider tours on Monday and Tuesday and Oregon Cider Week!

• Who is Michelle McGrath? Why did your job title change from Ex Dir to CEO? The latter, is a typical of a for-profit organization title. Was this new title part of signifying a greater change for the ACA moving forward?
• What are the key services that the American Cider Association is providing to its membership?
• Who can join the American Cider Association?
• CEO Michelle’s must attend (do not miss) recommendation for CiderCon 2024

CiderCon 2024

• What is CiderCon? How do the host cities get chosen?
• This year it returns to Portland Oregon, for the first time since 2016. What can attendees expect with this site (physical overview) what is different from the downtown location in 2016.
• Planning Tips for getting the most out of CiderCon (or why should a business send themselves or their staff).
• Pre conference cider tours: Why arrive early and sign up for a cider tour?
• First Timers, Networking & Traveling alone to CiderCon – “how to stay in the loop”

Learning Tracks at CiderCon

• Doing Business Better
• Making Amazing Cider
• Selling More Cider
• Growing bountiful Apples
• Exploring Cider’s Flavor & Terroir

International Guest at CiderCon

• There are a number of speakers from Sweden and Norway attending CiderCon 2024. Is this in keeping with highlighting a specific country or region as in past? Will there be any specific tasting sessions from the Nordic countries?
• CiderCon has become the largest conference in the world for the cider industry and this year it appears to spotlight more international speakers than ever before, from both Scandinavia and the UK. How do you recommend members or attendees who are focused on their US market to interpret the state of cider in America, if the pool of speakers is dominated by international guests.
• Is there a final closing toast that attendees can participate in, the Friday before heading home?

Contact info for American Cider Association and CEO

• Website: https://ciderassociation.org/
• CiderCon 2024 January 16th-19th, 2024 in Portland, Oregon
• CiderCon 2024 cider tours! go to https://ciderassociation.org/cidercon2024/2024-tours/
• Oregon Cider Week January 13-21, 2024

The Purpose of Secondary Fermentation when Making Cider

Improve the overall quality and characteristics of the final product during secondary fermentation by;

• Clarification: During primary fermentation, yeast converts sugars into alcohol, creating a cloudy mixture with suspended yeast and particulate matter. Secondary fermentation allows these particles to settle over time, resulting in clearer cider.
• Stabilization: Secondary fermentation helps to stabilize the cider by allowing it to age in a less active state. This aging process can reduce the risk of off-flavors and other fermentation by-products that can negatively impact the cider.
• Reduction of Sediment in Bottles: By allowing most of the sediment to settle out in the fermentation vessel rather than in the final packaging, secondary fermentation ensures a cleaner, more professional-looking bottled cider.
• Risk Reduction: Transferring cider to a new vessel after primary fermentation reduces the risk of contamination from dead yeast cells that can autolyze (break down) and potentially create off-flavors.

Secondary fermentation is a crucial step for refining cider, enhancing its clarity, taste, and stability before it is consumed or sold.

Past Cider Making Episodes

• 381 DIY Cider Making for Beginners
• 382 Beginner Tips for Squeaky Clean Cider Equipment
• 384 Beginner Cider Making Tips forPrimary Fermentation

Equipment needed for Cider’s Secondary Ferment

Find a complete list with links to purchase at theCider Making Equipment pageat ciderchat.com

• Extra Apple Juice to for topping off
• Secondary Fermenter – glass carboy of equal size
• Airlock and Bung
• Racking Cane or Auto-Siphon
• Sanitizer
• Hydrometer or Refractometer
• Tubing & a clothes pin ( a Ria tip to have on hand for clamping tubing as you go so it can be managed to insure that the tube doesn’t slip down into the lees and stir them up)
• Bottle Brush and Cleaning Equipment

Determining when Secondary Fermentation Begins

• Completion of Active Primary Fermentation: Watch and notice when the vigorous phase of primary fermentation is complete, which is typically indicated by a significant decrease in airlock activity or specific gravity readings that are close to the target final gravity.
• Gravity Readings: Use a hydrometer or refractometer to take consecutive gravity readings over a few days. When readings are consistent, it suggests that fermentation has slowed down enough for secondary transfer.
• Visual Clues: Look for a drop in the level of visible activity, such as the reduction of bubbles and the beginning of sediment formation at the bottom of the primary fermenter.
• Taste Test: Conduct a taste test for residual sweetness. If the cider is too sweet, it may need more time in primary fermentation unless the desired style of cider is sweet rather than dry.
• Timeframe Guidance: Generally, primary fermentation can take anywhere from a few days to two weeks, depending on factors like temperature, yeast strain, and original sugar content.
• Avoiding Off-Flavors: Transfer before the cider has sat too long on the lees at the bottom of the carboy to prevent off-flavors that can result from yeast autolysis.
• Specific Style Goals: Factor in the specific goals for the cider’s style, as some styles may benefit from a longer or shorter primary fermentation before secondary.
• Equipment Availability: Ensure that the secondary fermentation vessel is prepared and sanitized before deciding on the transfer to avoid any delays once the cider is ready.

Common Problems during Secondary Ferment

• Stalled Fermentation– Adjust fermentation temperature to optimal range.
• Excessive Oxidation– Minimize headspace and avoid splashing when transferring.
• Contamination– Practice stringent sanitation and possibly discard contaminated batch.
• Sulfite Burn– Allow time for dissipation or use activated carbon treatment.
• Insufficient Carbonation– Verify yeast viability and sugar availability; maintain proper bottle conditioning temperature.
• Sediment in Bottles– Allow full clearing in secondary, use fining agents, and bottle carefully.
• Unexpected Flavor Changes– Allow time for maturation or blend with another batch.
• Pressure Build-up in Containers– Use an airlock or periodically vent the container.
• Cider Becomes Too Dry– Monitor gravity to stop fermentation at desired sweetness or back-sweeten with non-fermentable sweeteners.

Mentions in this Cider Chat

• Past Cider Making Episodes:
• CiderCon 2024January 16th-19th, 2024 Portland, Oregon
• Ross Cider and Perry Company
• ciderGoingUp Campaignpage

Who knew that Ki , as it is related to the Japanese martial art Aikido, would make into a Cider Chat! It all began when four words "Bravey, Wisdom, Love and Friendship" were spoken at New York Apple Camp in the summer of 2023. Apple Historian, author and well known apple dectective John Bunker was the key note speaker at camp who also happened to have a book all about Aikido. He had found those four inspiring words in a book titled "The Art of Peace'.

The book was written by Morihei Ueshiba, the Founder of Aikido, and was translated into English by John Stevens who was a student of the Founder.

The Founder , or Ōsensei as he was lovingly spoken often of Ki and its power. In short it is a universal life force that is present in all of us and all living things, including apple trees, orchards and cider.

The book was written by Morihei Ueshiba, the Founder of Aikido, and was translated into English by John Stevens who was a student of the Founder.

The Founder , or Ōsensei as he was lovingly spoken often of Ki and its power. In short it is a universal life force that is present in all of us and all living things, including apple trees, orchards and cider.

• American Homebrewers Association’s (AHA) has a worldwide database of over 2,200 AHA-registered homebrew clubs.- search for home brew and fermenter clubs in your area
• Cider's Ki

The process where fresh pressed apple juice is transformed into a delightful alcoholic beverage (cider) happens during primary fermentation. Before we get into the steps here is a list ofEquipment and Ingredientsyou will need for this stage of cidermaking.

• Fresh apple juice or cider (unpreserved)
• Yeast (wine or cider yeast recommended)
• Fermentation vessel (carboy or food-grade bucket)
• Airlock
• Sanitizer
• Racking cane or siphon
• Note book for writing down recipes and more
• Optional:metabisulfite(or campden tablets),pH test stripsor pH meter, Yeast nutrient, pectic enzyme

Some of the links on this page are affiliate links. Support Cider Chat at no extra cost to you! Simply click on this link to make your Amazon purchase, and Cider Chat will receive a small commission. Thank you for your support!

1. Sanitization: Cleanliness is key! Ensure all your equipment is thoroughly sanitized to prevent any unwanted bacteria from spoiling your batch. Listen to Episode382: Beginner Tips for Squeaky Clean Cider Equipment
2. Got Juice?You can press you own apples or buy juice from a cider mill. Either way the the apple varieties you choose will significantly impact your cider’s flavor. Listen to Episode381: DIY Cider Making for Beginners

Steps for Primary Fermentation

Step 1:Start taking notes on your apple blend, make of list of the varieties, and all the steps below.

Step 2: Testing and Adjusting: Measure thespecific gravityof your juice using ahydrometer. This step is crucial as it allows you to calculate the potential alcohol content.

A standard, fresh apple juice blend, without any additional sugars, usually has a specific gravity in the range of 1.045 to 1.055. This range can vary based on the apple varieties and ripeness, but for our example today, let’s work with an Original Gravity (OG) of 1.050.

Calculating Potential Alcohol By Volume (ABV)Use this simple formula to estimate the potential ABV (Alcohol by Volume). The formula is:

PotentialABV=(OG−FG)×131.25

Where FG is the Final Gravity, which for a completely fermented cider, typically falls around 1.000 to 1.010. For our example, let’s assume that all the sugars are fermented, giving us a FG of 1.000.

PotentialABV=(1.050−1.000)×131.25 = 6.56%

With an original specific gravity of 1.050 and complete fermentation, you can expect your cider to have an alcohol content of around 6.5%.

Remember, these numbers are estimates, and the actual ABV can vary based on several factors including the specific yeast strain used, fermentation temperature, and the specific blend of apples. Always use a hydrometer to get the most accurate readings throughout your cider making process

Step 3: Check the ph of your apple blend

Step 4: Add metabisulfiteif using a cultured yeast. (Skip this step if your are fermenting with a wild yeast.)

Wait 24 hours after adding metabisulfite before moving to Step5

Step 5:(optional)

• Add Pectic Enzyme: This can help break down pectin in the juice, resulting in clearer cider.
• Add Yeast Nutrient: This provides additional nutrients to help the yeast thrive.

Step 6: Pitch the Yeast

Step 7:Airlock. Add water to airlock, put into bung hole and let primary fermentation begin!

Duration of Primary Fermentation

When using acultured yeast,the primary ferment begins within 24 hours and typically last 1-2 weeks.

When fermenting withwild yeast, the primary ferment may take longer and also last longer. The actual ferment may also appear less vigorous.

Mentions in this Chat

Mentions in this Chat

• Register now forCiderCon 2024in Portland Oregon with pre-conference cider tours taking place on January 16, 2024. CiderCon kicks off officially on Wednesday January 17th. Tasting Seminars, Workshops and Keynote speakers for 3 straight days (January 17 -19, 2024)
• Follow Marcel at de Gerdeneer on Instagram@degerdeneer

Meet the Medlar Specialist

Jane Steward, is the world’s premier Medlar Specialist. She is both a Grower and Producer of medlar preserves at Eastgate Larder, based in the UK, and the Author of the first ever book featuring Medlars called, “Medlars: Growing & Cooking

Jane Steward picking Medlars at Eastgate Larder

In this Medlar Chat

• What is a Medlar (pome, what do they look like) and why should we care about Medlars?
• What do they taste like?
• Where do Medlars grow and where did they come from?
• Growing Medlars
• Medlar cultivars
• When to pick the fruit?
• A bit about how Jane came to be a “Medlar Specialist"

The Book: Medlar, Growing and Cooking by Jane Steward (2023) published by Prospect Books

Cider Chat recommends supporting your local independent book stores. Jane's Medlar book is available on Amazon and by purchasing via this link Cider Chat does receive a kick back as an affiliate of Amazon at no further cost to you.

Eastgate Larder Products

• Medlar Jelly
• Medlar Chutney
• Medlar Gin Liqueur

Contact the Jane Steward, The Medlar Specialist

• Website:https://www.eastgatelarder.co.uk/

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis: SafCider™ Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info athttps://nwcider.com/map
  • Heritage Orchard Conference https://www.uidaho.edu/cals/sandpoint-organic-agriculture-center/conference