Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

This episode is brought to you by DX—a platform for measuring and improving developer productivity.

—

Dr. Nicole Forsgren is a developer productivity and DevOps expert who works with engineering organizations to make work better. Best known as co-author of the Shingo Publication Award-winning book Accelerate and the DevOps Handbook, 2nd edition and author of the State of DevOps Reports, she has helped some of the biggest companies in the world transform their culture, processes, tech, and architecture. Nicole is currently a Partner at Microsoft Research, leading developer productivity research and strategy, and a technical founder/CEO with a successful exit to Google. In a previous life, she was a software engineer, sysadmin, hardware performance engineer, and professor. She has published several peer-reviewed journal papers, has been awarded public and private research grants (funders include NASA and the NSF), and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Computerworld, and InformationWeek. In today’s podcast, we discuss:

• Two frameworks for measuring developer productivity: DORA and SPACE

• Benchmarks for what good and great look like

• Common mistakes to avoid when measuring developer productivity

• Resources and tools for improving your metrics

• Signs your developer experience needs attention

• How to improve your developer experience

• Nicole’s Four-Box framework for thinking about data and relationships

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer-productivity-nicole-forsgren-microsoft-research-github-goo/#transcript

—

Where to find Nicole Forsgren:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nicolefv

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolefv/

• Website: https://nicolefv.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Nicole’s background

(07:55) Unpacking the terms “developer productivity,” “developer experience,” and “DevOps”

(10:06) How to move faster and improve practices across the board

(13:43) The DORA framework

(18:54) Benchmarks for success

(22:33) Why company size doesn’t matter 

(24:54) How to improve DevOps capabilities by working backward

(29:23) The SPACE framework and choosing metrics

(32:51) How SPACE and DORA work together

(35:39) Measuring satisfaction

(37:52) Resources and tools for optimizing metrics

(41:29) Nicole’s current book project

(45:43) Common pitfalls companies run into when rolling out developer productivity/optimizations

(47:42) How the DevOps space has progressed

(50:07) The impact of AI on the developer experience and productivity

(54:04) First steps to take if you’re trying to improve the developer experience

(55:15) Why Google is an example of a company implementing DevOps solutions well

(56:11) The importance of clear communication

(57:32) Nicole’s Four-Box framework

(1:05:15) Advice on making decisions 

(1:08:56) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Chef: https://www.chef.io/

• DORA: https://dora.dev/

• GitHub: https://github.com/

• Microsoft Research: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/

• What is DORA?: https://devops.com/what-is-dora-and-why-you-should-care/

• Dustin Smith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustin-smith-b0525458/

• Nathen Harvey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathen/

• What is CI/CD?: https://about.gitlab.com/topics/ci-cd/

• Trunk-based development: https://cloud.google.com/architecture/devops/devops-tech-trunk-based-development

• DORA DevOps Quick Check: https://dora.dev/quickcheck/

• Accelerate: The Science of Lean Software and DevOps: Building and Scaling High Performing Technology Organizations: https://www.amazon.com/Accelerate-Software-Performing-Technology-Organizations/dp/1942788339

• The SPACE of Developer Productivity: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3454124

• DevOps Metrics: Nicole Forsgren and Mik Kersten: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3182626

• How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of Intangibles in Business: https://www.amazon.com/How-Measure-Anything-Intangibles-Business/dp/1118539273/

• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot

• Tabnine: https://www.tabnine.com/the-leading-ai-assistant-for-software-development

• Nicole’s Decision-Making Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wItAODkhZ-zKnnFbyDERCd8Hq2NQ03WPvCfigBQ5vpc/edit?usp=sharing

• How to do linear regression and correlation analysis: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linear-regression-and-correlation-analysis

• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The difference and why it matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-difference-matters/dp/1781256179/

• Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321

• Ender’s Game: https://www.amazon.com/Enders-Game-Ender-Quintet-1/dp/1250773024/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0

• Suits on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70195800

• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso

• Never Have I Ever on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80179190

• Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/

• COSRX face masks: https://www.amazon.com/COSRX-Advanced-Secretion-Hydrating-Moisturizing/dp/B08JSL9W6K/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

—

Ronny Kohavi, PhD, is a consultant, teacher, and leading expert on the art and science of A/B testing. Previously, Ronny was Vice President and Technical Fellow at Airbnb, Technical Fellow and corporate VP at Microsoft (where he led the Experimentation Platform team), and Director of Data Mining and Personalization at Amazon. He was also honored with a lifetime achievement award by the Experimentation Culture Awards in September 2020 and teaches a popular course on experimentation on Maven. In today’s podcast, we discuss:

• How to foster a culture of experimentation

• How to avoid common pitfalls and misconceptions when running experiments

• His most surprising experiment results

• The critical role of trust in running successful experiments

• When not to A/B test something

• Best practices for helping your tests run faster

• The future of experimentation

—

Enroll in Ronny’s Maven class: Accelerating Innovation with A/B Testing at https://bit.ly/ABClassLenny. Promo code “LENNYAB” will give $500 off the class for the first 10 people to use it.

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/

—

Where to find Ronny Kohavi:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ronnyk

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronnyk/

• Website: http://ai.stanford.edu/~ronnyk/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Ronny’s background

(04:29) How one A/B test helped Bing increase revenue by 12%

(09:00) What data says about opening new tabs

(10:34) Small effort, huge gains vs. incremental improvements 

(13:16) Typical fail rates

(15:28) UI resources

(16:53) Institutional learning and the importance of documentation and sharing results

(20:44) Testing incrementally and acting on high-risk, high-reward ideas

(22:38) A failed experiment at Bing on integration with social apps

(24:47) When not to A/B test something

(27:59) Overall evaluation criterion (OEC)

(32:41) Long-term experimentation vs. models

(36:29) The problem with redesigns

(39:31) How Ronny implemented testing at Microsoft

(42:54) The stats on redesigns 

(45:38) Testing at Airbnb

(48:06) Covid’s impact and why testing is more important during times of upheaval 

(50:06) Ronny’s book, Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments: A Practical Guide to A/B Testing

(51:45) The importance of trust

(55:25) Sample ratio mismatch and other signs your experiment is flawed

(1:00:44) Twyman’s law

(1:02:14) P-value

(1:06:27) Getting started running experiments

(1:07:43) How to shift the culture in an org to push for more testing

(1:10:18) Building platforms

(1:12:25) How to improve speed when running experiments

(1:14:09) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments: A Practical Guide to A/B Testing: https://experimentguide.com/

• Seven rules of thumb for website experimenters: https://exp-platform.com/rules-of-thumb/

• GoodUI: https://goodui.org

• Defaults for A/B testing: http://bit.ly/CH2022Kohavi

• Ronny’s LinkedIn post about A/B testing for startups: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronnyk_abtesting-experimentguide-statisticalpower-activity-6982142843297423360-Bc2U

• Sanchan Saxena on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/sanchan-saxena-vp-of-product-at-coinbase-on-the-inside-story-of-how-airbnb-made-it-through-covid-what-he8217s-learned-from-brian-chesky-brian-armstrong-and-kevin-systrom-much-more/

• Optimizely: https://www.optimizely.com/

• Optimizely was statistically naive: https://analythical.com/blog/optimizely-got-me-fired

• SRM: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronnyk_seat-belt-wikipedia-activity-6917959519310401536-jV97

• SRM checker: http://bit.ly/srmCheck

• Twyman’s law: http://bit.ly/twymanLaw

• “What’s a p-value” question: http://bit.ly/ABTestingIntuitionBusters

• Fisher’s method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_method

• Evolving experimentation: https://exp-platform.com/Documents/2017-05%20ICSE2017_EvolutionOfExP.pdf

• CUPED for variance reduction/increased sensitivity: http://bit.ly/expCUPED

• Ronny’s recommended books: https://bit.ly/BestBooksRonnyk

• Chernobyl on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/chernobyl

• Blink cameras: https://blinkforhome.com/

• Narrative not PowerPoint: https://exp-platform.com/narrative-not-powerpoint/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

—

Noah Weiss is Chief Product Officer at Slack, where he leads all aspects of the product organization, including the self-service SMB business, the team that launched huddles and clips, and the search and machine-learning teams. Prior to Slack, Noah served as SVP of Product at Foursquare. He started his career at Google, leading the structured data search team and working on display ads. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• The top 10 traits of great PMs

• How “complaint storms” helped Slack teams foster empathy

• How Slack’s product team is approaching AI

• “Comprehension desirability” and other key factors leading to Slack’s success

• Why you should be customer-aware but not customer-obsessed

• Important areas of growth for both new PMs and senior PMs

Curious to learn more about Slack? You can try Slack Pro and get 50% off using this link.

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-10-traits-of-great-pms-how-ai-will-impact-your-product-and-slacks-product-development-process/

—

Where to find Noah Weiss:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/noah_weiss

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahw/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Noah’s background

(04:22) Noah’s advice on new parenthood

(07:23) Lessons learned from leading product at Foursquare

(11:33) Advice for working with strongly opinionated founders

(14:14) Thinking of involvement on a U-shaped curve

(16:53) Principles at Slack

(19:32) Implementing ML, AI, and LLMs in meaningful ways

(25:11) How Slack structures AI teams

(26:59) Complaint storms and how they help foster empathy

(30:01) Slack’s approach to prioritization 

(32:26) How delight is baked into the DNA of Slack

(34:41) How Slack thinks about competition 

(38:04) Building a culture that takes big bets

(41:40) Rituals at Slack

(44:51) How Slack unlocked new levers of growth and revived their self-serve business

(52:01) Slack’s early success and the factors that made them successful 

(58:08) Slack’s pilot programs for testing new features

(1:02:03) Noah’s famous blog post: “The 10 Traits of Great Product Managers”

(1:10:15) Book recommendations to improve your writing

(1:12:30) Managing up and the importance of data fluency

(1:14:54) The most important skills to improve as an early-career PM and as a senior PM

(1:17:16) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Emily Oster: https://emilyoster.net/

• Dennis Crowley: https://denniscrowley.com/

• Stewart Butterfield on Twitter: https://twitter.com/stewart

• Don’t Make Me Think, Revisited: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Think-Revisited-Usability/dp/0321965515

• Gustav Söderström on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-spotify-the-science-of-product-taking-risky-bets-and-how-ai-is-already-impacting-the-future-of-music-gustav-soderstrom-co-president-cpo-and-cto-at-spotify/

• Seth Godin: https://seths.blog/

• Noah’s blog post on the 10 traits of great PMs: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/10-traits-of-great-pms-a7776cd3d9cd

• Five Dangerous Myths about Product Management: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/five-dangerous-myths-about-product-management-d1d852ed02a2

• Paul Graham: http://paulgraham.com/

• Ben Horowitz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bhorowitz

• On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Memoir-Craft-Stephen-King/dp/1982159375

• On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-Classic-Guide-Nonfiction/dp/0060891548

• Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t: And Other Tough-Love Truths to Make You a Better Writer: https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492

• Several Short Sentences About Writing: https://www.amazon.com/Several-Short-Sentences-About-Writing/dp/0307279413

• Paige Costello on Twitter: https://twitter.com/paigenow

• Creative Selection: Inside Apple's Design Process During the Golden Age of Steve Jobs: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Selection-Inside-Apples-Process/dp/1250194466

• The Innovator’s Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780

• Radical Candor: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kim-Scott/dp/1250258405

• Leadership: In Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Turbulent-Doris-Kearns-Goodwin/dp/1476795924

• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession

• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f

• Nanit: https://www.nanit.com/

• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-smart-bassinet

• Uppababy: https://uppababy.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

—

Hari Srinivasan is VP of Product at LinkedIn Talent Solutions, where he oversees LinkedIn Recruiter, LinkedIn Jobs, and LinkedIn Learning. He’s also a frequent guest lecturer at Stanford University. Previously, he served as the CEO and founder of We Created It, which was acquired by LinkedIn in 2014. Hari has a passion for building products, with experience ranging from creating the first U.S. hybrid SUV to developing a No. 1 app and writing a beloved children’s book. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• LinkedIn’s unique business model and org structure

• How to optimize your LinkedIn experience and improve your chances of getting a PM role

• How to adapt to a skills-first talent market

• The story of Hari’s failed first product review, and how he pivoted for success

• Strategies for building and maintaining complex systems

• How to get into product management

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/linkedins-product-evolution-and-the-art-of-building-complex-systems-hari-srinivasan-linkedin/#transcript

—

Where to find Hari Srinivasan:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hsrinivasan1/

• Website: https://www.mindofhari.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Hari’s background

(05:04) How Twitter brought Lenny and Hari together

(06:32) LinkedIn’s positive evolution, and what they did right

(10:14) Specific changes that made LinkedIn’s feed more interesting

(11:12) Understanding the algorithm and what kinds of content perform best

(12:21) The talent solution product

(15:46) The shift to skills-first hiring, and how LinkedIn changed their approach

(20:24) The open-to-work signal, and the newly released open-to-internal-work signal

(22:13) The PM talent landscape, and tips for landing a PM role

(24:55) How to optimize your LinkedIn profile to get noticed by recruiters

(28:38) Hari’s first product review at LinkedIn

(30:38) LinkedIn’s North Star, and how to operationalize the North Star at any company

(33:24) LinkedIn’s members-first value

(35:32) Building and maintaining complex systems

(38:09) The RAPID framework and the Five-Day Alignment framework

(39:51) What LinkedIn looks for in new hires

(40:51) The latest innovations at LinkedIn

(43:16) LinkedIn Learning

(45:00) Hari’s product management course

(48:19) Advice for people hoping to get into product management

(50:40) How to level up your PM skills

(51:57) Hari’s creative side projects 

(55:02) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Tweet from TheCuriousPM: https://twitter.com/zatin_jatin/status/1658616200560254978?s=20

• The Curious PM on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zatin_jatin

• Decision-making at LinkedIn: https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2018/03/scaling-decision-making-across-teams-within-linkedin-engineering

• LinkedIn Learning: https://www.linkedin.com/learning

• Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557

• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrow-novel-Gabrielle-Zevin/dp/0593321200

• An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us: https://www.amazon.com/Immense-World-Animal-Senses-Reveal/dp/0593133234

• Star Wars on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/brand/star-wars

• Case 63 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4c9ZKaFtEKweSYOlYvxfvp

• E.T. on Tubi: https://tubitv.com/movies/607451/e-t-the-extra-terrestrial

• BriteBrush: https://www.amazon.com/BriteBrush-Interactive-Smart-Toothbrush-featuring/dp/B07VLL8QH4

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech

—

Julia Schottenstein is a product lead at dbt Labs, a data transformation company, and an active angel investor in data and infrastructure startups. She first got excited about dbt in 2019 when she was a VC at NEA and decided to make the leap from investor to operator by joining dbt Labs. She also co-hosts the dbt Labs Analytics Engineering Podcast, a show about data trends that impact analytics engineers’ work. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Advice for founders hoping to improve their M&A outcome

• How to strategically think about competition

• How to determine your paid features and have willingness-to-pay conversations

• Why Julia lives by “worse is better” and “tech debt is a champagne problem”

• Lessons from dbt Labs

• What PMs can learn from investors

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/ma-competition-pricing-and-investing-julia-schottenstein-dbt-labs/#transcript

—

Where to find Julia Schottenstein:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/j_schottenstein

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-schottenstein-25424318/

• Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/4BKMMeVXk4jJnAQSqGSJvE

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Julia’s background

(04:15) How Julia went from VC to working in product at dbt Labs

(08:24) Four things Julia uses to evaluate a company’s potential 

(11:10) How to identify whether or not you have product-market fit

(12:05) Distribution strategies

(13:11) M&A strategies

(15:54) Lessons from the Transform acquisition

(18:01) Competitive values at dbt

(20:25) Keys to dbt’s success

(26:35) An offsite exercise Julia used to help her team internalize upcoming changes

(29:32) Determining what features are included in open source

(31:56) Pricing and willingness to pay

(33:34) Lessons from dbt Labs’s first pricing change

(36:33) Whether or not to be public about selling your startup

(40:08) How to utilize connections during acquisitions

(44:57) How to communicate selling your company

(46:33) M&A market forecast

(47:28) Values at dbt Labs 

(50:14) Lessons from working with strongly opinionated users

(52:02) The importance of shipping, learning, and iterating 

(54:08) How VC skills translate into product

(57:03) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• dbt Labs: https://www.getdbt.com/

• Tristan Handy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanhandy/

• dbt Labs acquires Transform to enhance Semantic Layer tool: https://www.techtarget.com/searchbusinessanalytics/news/365530993/DBT-Labs-acquires-Transform-to-enhance-Semantic-Layer-tool

• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/

• Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567

• Red strings training clip from Ted Lasso: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVe3Iwy10MA

• Monetizing Innovation: https://www.amazon.com/Monetizing-Innovation-Companies-Design-Product/dp/1119240867

• Madhavan Ramanujam on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-pricing-madhavan#details

• Pricing survey: https://www.qualtrics.com/marketplace/vanwesterndorp-pricing-sensitivity-study/

• Hunter Walk’s blog post about publicly selling your startup: https://hunterwalk.com/2023/05/13/the-acquihire-market-for-early-stage-startups-is-ice-cold-one-better-strategy-announce-youre-for-sale/

• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214506/

• The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Snowball-Warren-Buffett-Business-Life/dp/0553384619/r

• Sam Walton: Made in America: https://www.amazon.com/Sam-Walton-Made-America/dp/0553562835

• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession

• In Depth podcast: https://review.firstround.com/podcast

• dbt community Slack: https://www.getdbt.com/community/join-the-community/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Brave—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders

—

Paige Costello is a beloved product leader with a reputation as a remarkable coach and mentor. She is currently the Head of Core Product at Asana, where she leads the group responsible for Asana’s web, desktop, and mobile apps. Prior to that role, she served as the Director of Product at Intercom and, before that, as a Group PM at Intuit, where she kickstarted her product career through their renowned APM program. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• The unique product development process at Asana and how it’s evolved

• The double-diamond framework

• Conscious leadership training, and why every Asana employee learns it

• How to demonstrate confidence and earn trust from skeptics

• Why curiosity and openness may be the most important PM competencies

• How to give feedback using impact statements

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project-confidence-and-win-over-skeptics-paige-costello-asana-intercom-intuit/#transcript

—

Where to find Paige Costello:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/paigenow

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paigecostello/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Paige’s background

(04:38) What Paige is responsible for at Asana

(06:04) The evolution of Asana’s product development process

(09:10) Planning frequency

(11:26) Examples of areas and metric tracking at Asana

(12:46) The double-diamond process and how it’s applied at Asana

(16:53) Asana’s office-centric hybrid work culture and the future of WFH

(21:45) How to garner trust and win over skeptics

(24:45) Why you should befriend researchers

(26:17) How to exude confidence

(29:03) The 3Es framework

(33:43) Advice for early-career PMs

(38:43) Paige’s latest pillars strategy

(40:05) AI at Asana

(41:50) Lessons from Paige’s time at Intuit

(45:53) Challenges new PMs face

(48:55) Challenges Paige has faced in her career

(52:39) Paige’s skill-focused career philosophy

(55:43) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Use This Equation to Determine, Diagnose, and Repair Trust: https://review.firstround.com/use-this-equation-to-determine-diagnose-and-repair-trust

• About conscious leadership at Asana: https://wavelength.asana.com/workstyle-simple-shift/

• The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable/dp/0990976904

• Intuit: https://www.intuit.com/

• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507

• The Blind Assassin: https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Assassin-Novel-Margaret-Atwood/dp/0385720955

• The Alchemist: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemist-Paulo-Coelho/dp/0062315005

• The Diplomat on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81288983

• Fire of Love on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/fire-of-love/1hC7erRfsl3B

• Poe: https://poe.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made

—

Jiaona Zhang (JZ) is a product leader with a strong background in consumer products and extensive hiring and management experience. She is currently SVP of Product at Webflow as well as a lecturer at Stanford, where she teaches a graduate-level course on product management. Before Webflow, JZ was Head of Product for the Homes Platform at Airbnb and has also led product teams at Airbnb, WeWork, and Dropbox. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Building a “minimum lovable product” rather than a minimum viable product

• How to create better roadmaps through storytelling

• Top lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow

• The importance of setting ambitious OKRs

• JZ’s first 90 days playbook: how to succeed in a new role

• Advice for early-career PMs

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-minimum-lovable-products-stories-from-wework-and-airbnb-and-thriving-as-a-pm-jiaona-zhang-webflow-wework-airbnb-dropbox/#transcript

—

Where to find Jiaona Zhang:

• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/managing-your-pm-career

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/

• Website: https://www.jiaonazhang.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) JZ’s background

(04:22) Common mistakes new PMs make

(06:44) Why Airbnb Plus didn’t work out, and takeaways from that experience

(10:51) Executing big dreams step-by-step

(13:45) The right way to push back against founders

(16:54) Minimum lovable product vs. minimum viable product

(20:53) What makes a product lovable

(22:20) Advice on roadmapping and prioritization

(28:04) Tips for new PMs to accelerate their career

(29:16) JZ’s top skills and how they have evolved over her career

(31:37) Designing crisp OKRs

(36:09) Lessons from WeWork

(43:01) Winning the first 90 days at a new company

(48:34) Why trust is crucial

(51:48) High-level lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow

(56:38) The one piece of advice that transformed JZ’s career

(58:39) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Mike Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikelewis/

• “What working at Figma taught me about customer obsession,” VP of Product Sho Kuwamoto: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-working-at-figma-taught-me-about

• WeWork: https://www.wework.com/

• WeCrashed on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/wecrashed/umc.cmc.6qw605uv2rwbzutk2p2fsgvq9

• Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days: https://www.amazon.com/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X

• The Making of a Manager: What to Do When Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0735219567

• Tress of the Emerald Sea: A Cosmere Novel: https://www.amazon.com/Tress-Emerald-Sea-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/1250899656/

• Arcane on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81435684

• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/

• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

—

Sri Batchu currently leads growth at Ramp, the fastest-growing SaaS business (and fintech business) in history. Previously, he led growth strategy and operations at Instacart and was one of the first 50 employees at Opendoor, where he built, scaled, and managed a variety of business teams, including analytics, sales, and pricing. During his time there, the company grew from $100M to $5B+ in revenue and to 1,500+ people. In this episode, we discuss:• The surprising tactics behind Ramp’s unprecedented early growth• A breakdown of Ramp’s current growth org and growth channels• Why you need to be “failing conclusively”• Ramp’s unique approach to metrics and measurement• Examples of Ramp’s “secret sauce”: a data- and technology-driven approach to everything• Why Sri prioritizes employee autonomy and flexibility over hours worked• Why team structure is a red herring for growth teams, and what Sri focuses on instead• How to set good North Star metrics, and why you should have more than one• Why Sri prefers payback periods over CAC for measuring investment ROI

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-ramp-sri-batchu-ramp-instacart-opendoor/#transcript

—

Where to find Sri Batchu:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/sri_batchu

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sribatchu/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Sri’s background

(04:07) Stats surrounding Ramp’s hypergrowth

(06:20) How Ramp set the stage for their remarkable growth

(09:19) New customers vs. customer expansion

(10:20) How Ramp has prioritized data-driven decisions

(12:12) Ramp’s growth engineering team, and how it supports the sales team

(13:41) The structure of the growth team at Ramp

(14:36) The “skunk works” team

(15:49) How Ramp maintains working at such high velocity

(19:11) How Ramp boosts morale and keeps employees engaged and excited

(21:45) How to promote hard work

(25:10) Optimizing efficiency in your growth engine

(27:28) Leveraging PR and fundraising

(29:20) Traditional media vs. newsletters and podcasts

(30:49) Building a repeatable and scalable growth process

(32:28) Examples of good North Star metrics

(37:09) Lower-level metrics

(40:30) When it makes sense to use the North Star framework

(42:03) Why Ramp doesn’t allow signups through personal emails, and how to reach out if you’re in that position

(43:11) Efficiency metrics and volume metrics

(46:49) Payback period vs. CAC for measuring ROI

(48:55) Defining payback period and contribution margin

(49:51) How to sequence growth tactics for B2B

(52:18) Experimentation and the importance of failing conclusively

(58:06) Ramp’s tool stack

(1:00:32) How to hire great people

(1:03:21) The importance of compensating employees properly

(1:06:28) The MECE framework

(1:09:21) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• How Ramp builds product, in Lenny’s Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-ramp-builds-product

• Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/

• Keith Rabois on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith/

• Packy McCormick’s article on Ramp: https://www.notboring.co/p/ramps-double-unicorn-rounds-behind

• Gibson Biddle’s framework: https://gibsonbiddle.medium.com/9-the-gem-model-65c89face5de

• DoorDash’s business model: https://businessmodelanalyst.com/doordash-business-model/

• Airtable: https://www.airtable.com/

• Mutiny: https://www.mutinyhq.com/

• Gokul Rajaram on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gokulr

• Claire Hughes Johnson on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-stripe/

• MECE principle: https://productfolio.com/mece-principal/

• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805

• Stories of Your Life and Others: https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122/r

• Everything Everywhere All at Once on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/everything-everywhere-all-at-once-fa320000-8cf3-46fc-8c45-df5ec67b71f2

• Fellow kettles: https://fellowproducts.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech | Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

—

Melissa Tan is an advisor, investor, and growth expert. She’s worked with fast-growing startups like Dropbox, Canva, Grammarly, and Miro, and for the past 2.5 years has been the Head of Growth at Webflow. There, she led the company's self-service business across Product, Marketing, and Growth, in addition to leading the charge on pricing and packaging. Prior to Webflow, she was Head of Growth for Dropbox’s B2B product, where she played a pivotal role in propelling their growth. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Attributes of high-performing teams

• Tips for developing talent and seeking a mentor

• How to create a strong culture of ownership

• Frameworks for hiring PM and growth talent

• Common pitfalls companies face when implementing growth strategies

• Lessons from scaling Dropbox

• The DACI framework for increasing team velocity

• How to actually embrace first-principles thinking

—

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-high-performing-teams-melissa-tan-webflow-dropbox-canva/#transcript

—

Where to find Melissa Tan:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/melissamtan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissamtan/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Melissa’s background

(04:12) What’s next for Melissa

(06:45) Lessons learned from Dropbox

(11:49) When to add sales to product-led products and vice versa

(14:28) Managing people with a people-focused and results-oriented approach

(17:14) An example of people-focused leadership

(20:26) The importance of talent development and why Melissa invests in it

(22:26) Tips for finding a mentor

(24:58) Specific questions to ask when you are interviewing for a role

(27:49) Companies Melissa has worked with

(28:33) Attributes of high-performing teams

(31:38) Creating a sense of ownership among team members

(34:36) Building a team-first culture

(36:54) Avoiding burnout by knowing your limits

(39:24) Developing talent and unlocking potential within your organization

(42:45) Melissa’s hiring practices and what she looks for in a product manager

(44:40) The exact interview sequence Melissa utilizes

(49:58) Common pitfalls when creating growth teams

(53:43) “Flying formation” and the DACI framework

(56:48) Who should own revenue

(58:19) When to invest in growth

(1:01:06) What to look for in your first growth hire

(1:04:35) When it’s appropriate to hire an advisor

(1:06:19) First-principles thinking

(1:09:50) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Jiaona Zhang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/

• Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Women-Work-Will-Lead/dp/0385349947

• Tim Ferriss: How to Find a Great Mentor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVo1aZCyfO4

• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kick-Ass-Humanity/dp/1250235375/

• How to Monetize a Freemium Business: https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/how-to-monetize-a-freemium-business

• DACI framework: https://www.productplan.com/glossary/daci/

• Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don't: https://www.amazon.com/Leaders-Eat-Last-Together-Others/dp/1591848016/r

• The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself: https://www.amazon.com/Untethered-Soul-Journey-Beyond-Yourself/dp/1572245379/

• The Four Agreements: https://www.amazon.com/Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal-Freedom/dp/1878424319

• Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/winning-time-the-rise-of-the-lakers-dynasty

• ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com/

• Webflow: https://webflow.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Attio—A powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments

—

Luc Levesque is Chief Growth Officer at Shopify and has advised companies like Canva, Twitter, Pinterest, and Patreon on growth and product strategy. Previously he served as an executive at TripAdvisor, where he built and led the growth team that helped it become the world’s largest travel site. Luc was then recruited by Mark Zuckerberg to Facebook, where he was an executive and held senior product and engineering leadership roles. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• Why you need to become world-class at hiring

• Tips for finding a great growth advisor and assessing their impact

• Why truly great companies focus on impact

• Common mistakes to avoid when building a growth team

• The importance of passion and continuous self-improvement

• Signs your company should explore SEO as a growth channel, and strategies to do so

• Why Mark Zuckerberg personally recruited Luc and what it taught him about the recruiting process

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/leveraging-growth-advisors-hiring-well-mastering-seo-and-honing-your-craft-luc-levesque-shopify-meta-tripadvisor/#transcript

—

Where to find Luc Levesque:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/luclevesque

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luclevesque/

• Website: https://luclevesque.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Luc’s background

(03:31) Luc’s first MT review at Facebook

(07:09) Impact vs. industriousness

(09:20) Facebook’s relentless, personalized approach to recruiting talent

(13:12) Luc’s hiring playbook

(16:56) When to focus on growth and the importance of product-market fit

(18:04) What to look for in a growth advisor

(23:15) The large impact Luc made from a small conversation

(26:52) Advice on compensating advisors

(31:35) How to find a good growth advisor using VCs and your network

(33:33) The importance of having an in-house person and growth advisors as support

(38:15) Tips for becoming a growth advisor

(41:59) The power of SEO 

(45:29) The two buckets of SEO

(49:21) Channels of growth

(51:49) The potential impact of ChatGPT on Google and SEO

(56:04) Advice on hiring an SEO person

(58:19) How long it takes for SEO to make an impact

(1:00:07) Self-reflection, cold plunge, and other tools Luc uses to excel in his personal and work life

(1:06:46) Luc’s famous dinner guild

(1:10:33) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Luc’s blueprint: https://coda.io/@luc-levesque/blueprint-for-leaders-managers-communicate-your-quirks/my-blueprint-9

• Jeff Bezos’s morning routine: https://finty.com/us/daily-routines/jeff-bezos

• Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-Brain/dp/0316113514

• Smart Brevity: The Power of Saying More with Less: https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Brevity-Power-Saying-More/dp/1523516976

• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-New-Expanded-Psychology-Persuasion/dp/0062937650/

• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599

• Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t: And Other Tough-Love Truths to Make You a Better Writer: https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492

• The War of Art: Break Through the Blocks and Win Your Inner Creative Battles: https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Through-Creative-Battles/dp/1936891026

• The Legend of Bagger Vance: A Novel of Golf and the Game of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Legend-Bagger-Vance-Novel-Golf/dp/038072751X

• Huberman Lab podcast: https://hubermanlab.com/welcome-to-the-huberman-lab-podcast/

• The All-In Podcast: https://www.allinpodcast.co/

• Renu cold plunge: https://www.renutherapy.com/

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

—

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe