Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Brought to you by Linear—The new standard for modern software development | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life

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Elena Verna is a leading growth expert with over 15 years of experience in tech. She was SVP of Growth at SurveyMonkey and interim CMO at Miro, where she built high-performing teams that drove significant growth. She recently served as interim Head of Growth at Amplitude and currently advises and is a board member for early-stage startups. In today’s podcast, we discuss:

• What product-led sales is

• How product-led sales differs from product-led growth

• Unpacking common acronyms: PQAs, PQs, PQLs, and MQLs

• When and how to consider investing in PLS

• Metrics for identifying qualified accounts

• The team, data, and tooling required for implementing PLS

• Common pitfalls to avoid when adding PLS

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led-sales-elena-verna/#transcript

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Where to find Elena Verna:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/elenaverna

• Newsletter: https://elenaverna.substack.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Elena’s background and what she’s doing now

(07:13) Product-led sales (PLS) vs. product-led growth (PLG)

(12:47) How sales solutions can be applied to enterprise-level problems

(15:06) Defining enterprise-level problems 

(17:51) How product-led companies start with PLS

(20:30) When to add sales

(22:36) Two ways to get to PLS

(24:27) Why every sales-led-growth company needs to add PLG

(26:50) Two ways you can own revenue

(28:37) PQAs, PQs, PQLs, and MQLs

(37:17) How to get started adding PLS

(42:01) Metrics to identify PQAs

(47:00) Why sales should be carefully applied 

(49:07) Systems, infrastructure, and tooling

(50:59) The people and resources required for PLS

(53:42) Why you should have a clear ROI for every new hire

(55:05) Why product needs to be accountable for monetization with PLS

(59:57) Revenue-based goals product teams should have

(1:06:28) Common pitfalls startups run into when implementing PLS

(1:09:15) Benchmarks and the amount of time needed for implementing enterprise solutions

(1:12:04) Using onboarding to profile users

(1:13:08) Will AI be the next sales movement?

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Referenced:

• Elena’s previous episode on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/elena-verna-on-how-b2b-growth-is-changing-product-led-growth-product-led-sales-why-you-should-go-freemium-not-trial-what-features-to-make-free-and-much-more/

• Miro: https://miro.com/

• Figma: https://www.figma.com/

• Elena’s PLS funnel diagram: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/elenaverna_b2b-product-led-sales-guide-activity-7052664130763206658-yxLK/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

• Elena’s memes: https://www.elenaverna.com/memes

• Mixpanel Signal reports: https://mixpanel.com/blog/mixpanel-signal-launch/

• Amplitude Compass chart: https://help.amplitude.com/hc/en-us/articles/235147347-The-Compass-chart-discover-your-users-a-ha-moments

• Looker: https://www.looker.com/

• Tableau: https://www.tableau.com/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/

• Marketo: https://nation.marketo.com/

• Waitlist for PLG course on Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/programs/product-led-growth

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Linear—The new standard for modern software development

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Varun Parmar is the Chief Product Officer of Miro and has over two decades of experience in the tech industry. Prior to joining Miro, Varun held executive positions as Chief Product Officer at Box and Syncplicity (acquired by Dell EMC) and spent six years in product management at Adobe. He also co-founded Doculus, which was later acquired by Box. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• The importance of empathy and how to foster it

• The “AMPED” structure for cross-functional product teams

• How to move fast and stay ahead of the competition

• Powerful product and design rituals

• How Miro acquired their first 1,000 users

• How Miro successfully added a sales motion

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/an-inside-look-at-how-miro-builds-product-lessons-on-outmaneuvering-competitors-team-structure-product-quality-and-moving-fast-varun-parmar-cpo-of-miro/#transcript

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Where to find Varun Parmar:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/vparmar230

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vparmar/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Varun’s background

(04:08) How Miro operates as a cross-cultural product team

(07:22) How applying empathy helped Miro build Miro Talktrack

(11:51) What makes Miro stand out

(17:08) Miro’s AMPED structure

(22:57) The benefit of having product marketing as a part of the cross-functional team

(25:24) How competition affects growth and product strategy

(31:43) Why speed is so important and how to improve it

(34:21) How Miro ensures that their products meet quality standards

(37:19) How to remove blockers

(47:22) Miro’s product development process

(53:34) How OKRs work at Miro

(55:55) The product stack at Miro

(1:01:20) Big bets vs. maintenance and bug fixes at Miro

(1:03:44) The “three horizons” framework

(1:04:30) The importance of accountability

(1:10:46) How Miro got their first 1,000 users

(1:12:33) Other growth levers at Miro

(1:15:53) Adding a sales motion

(1:18:08) Miro AI, and new updates and enhancements coming soon

(1:20:12) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Miro: https://miro.com/

• Miro Talktrack: https://help.miro.com/hc/en-us/articles/7825622973330-Miro-Talktrack-board-recordings-BETA-

• The design sprint: https://www.thesprintbook.com/the-design-sprint

• Jake Knapp on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-knapp/

• Miroverse: https://miro.com/miroverse/

• Amp It Up: Leading for Hypergrowth by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, and Elevating Intensity: https://www.amazon.com/Amp-Unlocking-Hypergrowth-Expectations-Intensity/dp/1119836115

• Reinforcement learning: https://towardsdatascience.com/reinforcement-learning-101-e24b50e1d292

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Confluence: https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence

• Coda: https://coda.io/

• Looker: https://www.looker.com/google-cloud/

• Productboard: https://www.productboard.com/

• Three horizons framework: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/strategy-and-corporate-finance/our-insights/enduring-ideas-the-three-horizons-of-growth

• Capterra: https://www.capterra.com/

• Elena Verna on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/elena-verna-on-how-b2b-growth-is-changing-product-led-growth-product-led-sales-why-you-should-go-freemium-not-trial-what-features-to-make-free-and-much-more/

• Barbra Gago on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/category-creation-and-brand-building-barbra-gago-pando-miro-greenhouse-culture-amp/

• FIFA World Cup template: https://miro.com/miroverse/fifa-world-cup-2022-editable-bracket-diagrams/

• When Breath Becomes Air: https://www.amazon.com/When-Breath-Becomes-Paul-Kalanithi/dp/081298840X/

• Hit Refresh: The Quest to Rediscover Microsoft’s Soul and Imagine a Better Future for Everyone: https://www.amazon.com/Hit-Refresh-Rediscover-Microsofts-Everyone/dp/0062652508/

• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by Sprig—Product insights that drive product success.

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Ada Chen Rekhi is an executive coach and co-founder of Notejoy. She helps founders scale themselves alongside their teams. She has over a decade of experience leading teams through periods of rapid transition, from the chaos of founding early-stage startups to leadership roles in growing SurveyMonkey and LinkedIn. In today’s podcast, we discuss:

• How utilizing a “curiosity loop” can aid you in decision-making

• A values exercise that can help determine if your life choices align with your personal values

• Ada’s “explore and exploit” framework for making the most of your job opportunities

• The advantages of seeking an executive coach and useful tips on finding one

• Tips for women navigating working in Silicon Valley

• Why it’s so important to provide constructive feedback

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-make-better-decisions-and-build-a-joyful-career-ada-chen-rekhi-notejoy-linkedin-surveymonkey/#transcript

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Where to find Ada Chen Rekhi:

• Website: https://www.adachen.com/

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/adachen

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adachen/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Ada’s background

(03:17) What a curiosity loop is and when to use one

(11:39) Using curiosity loops in your personal life

(14:13) How curiosity loops are like customer advisory councils

(16:30) A values exercise

(25:30) Ada’s “explore and exploit” framework

(31:28) When it’s time to leave your job

(35:37) Logo collecting and why you should optimize for your values instead

(39:30) What triggered Ada to reevaluate her career path

(42:10) Why most people don’t actually need a coach

(44:59) When coaching is valuable

(47:20) How to find the right coach

(51:38) Advice for women in Silicon Valley

(1:00:08) Eating your vegetables—why you need to power through things you find challenging

(1:05:07) Why you should write to crystallize knowledge, rather than for likes

(1:06:54) How to successfully build a company with your spouse

(1:11:07) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• SurveyMonkey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/

• Values exercise: https://www.adachen.com/build-your-inner-scorecard-a-10-minute-exercise-for-better-decisions/

• Clay: https://www.clay.com/

• The Dip: A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick): https://www.amazon.com/Dip-Little-Book-Teaches-Stick/dp/1591841666/

• Research on the coaching industry: https://www.adachen.com/an-in-depth-guide-to-executive-coaching-everything-you-need-to-know-part-1/

• The inner scorecard: https://fs.blog/the-inner-scorecard/

• How to find a coach: https://www.adachen.com/a-practical-guide-how-to-find-an-executive-coach-part-3/

• Radical Candor: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kim-Scott/dp/1250258405/

• Kim Malone Scott: https://kimmalonescott.com/

• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion: https://a.co/d/6JycbJo

• Designing Your Life: https://a.co/d/cS2IqG0

• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso/

• Star Trek: Strange New Worlds on Paramount+: https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/star-trek-strange-new-worlds/

• Notejoy: https://notejoy.com/

• Captio: https://captio.co/

• Note to Self: https://notetoselfapp.com/

• Arc: https://arc.net/

• Make Time: How to Focus on What Matters Every Day: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Time-Focus-Matters-Every/dp/0525572422

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech

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Laura Modi is the CEO and co-founder of Bobbie, the first woman-owned, organic infant formula in the U.S. Previously, Laura spent over five years at Airbnb, where she served as Director of Hospitality. Before that, she spent over four years at Google in finance and operations. In today’s podcast, we discuss:

• Biggest lessons from five years at Airbnb

• Lessons about building great culture

• The power of naivete

• From growth to “slowth”: Why Bobbie prioritized existing customers over growth during the height of the formula shortage

• The importance of momentum above all else

• Finding work-life balance with the right infrastructure, support, and frameworks

• The importance of brand, and how to build a brand

• What it takes to win in DTC

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-build-a-cult-like-brand-laura-modi-bobbie/#transcript

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Where to find Laura Modi:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurahughes6/

• Email: [email protected]

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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Note: Lenny is a small angel investor in Bobbie.

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Laura’s background

(04:20) What Laura worked on at Airbnb

(06:22) The director of hospitality role

(07:08) How supporting hosts led to growth at Airbnb

(08:28) Lessons from Airbnb around culture and storytelling that impact how Laura runs Bobbie

(09:44) How Laura builds a strong culture at Bobbie 

(11:45) The risk she took in starting her own company

(13:41) Advice on taking risks

(15:10) What is Bobbie

(17:15) The scale of Bobbie

(17:55) The infant formula shortage crisis 

(19:49) How the growth team pivoted to being the “slowth” team

(23:23) Lessons from the crisis

(25:16) Building a brand

(31:12) Branding internally

(33:58) The time the FDA shut Bobbie down over labeling

(36:45) How Laura balances her busy mom life with being a founder

(40:17) The power of naivete 

(44:03) Why Laura hires optimistic doers

(45:56) Growing a DTC company

(47:14) How Bobbie leverages content, community, and commerce

(49:42) Bobbie’s pie chart of growth

(50:43) Emily Oster’s influence 

(52:40) The importance of momentum and how to create it

(54:15) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Bobbie: https://www.hibobbie.com/

• Davos: https://www.weforum.org/events/world-economic-forum-annual-meeting-2023

• MrBeast’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX6OQ3DkcsbYNE6H8uQQuVA

• Josh Miller on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look-at-how-the-browser-company-builds-product-josh-miller-ceo/

• Milk Drunk podcast: https://milk-drunk.com/

• Emily Oster on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ProfEmilyOster

• Cribsheet: https://www.amazon.com/Cribsheet/dp/1788164490

• Great by Choice: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choice-Uncertainty-Thrive-Despite/dp/1847940889

• Metabolical: The Lure and the Lies of Processed Food, Nutrition, and Modern Medicine: https://www.amazon.com/Metabolical-Processed-Nutrition-Modern-Medicine/dp/0063027712/

• Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable: https://www.amazon.com/Purple-Cow-Transform-Business-Remarkable/dp/014101640X

• Expecting Better: https://www.amazon.com/Expecting-Better-Conventional-Pregnancy-Wrong/dp/0143125702

• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599

• Bad Sisters on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/bad-sisters

• NoseFrida the Snotsucker: https://frida.com/products/nosefrida

• Careers at Bobbie: https://www.hibobbie.com/pages/careers

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Public—Invest in stocks, treasuries, crypto, and more | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration

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Shweta Shrivastava is a Senior Product Leader at Waymo, an autonomous driving technology company backed by Alphabet. Prior to joining Waymo, she was the CPO of Nauto, where she also worked on AI-assisted driver tools. Shweta has worked in product for over 15 years in senior roles at several companies, including Amazon and Cisco. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• How Waymo builds trust with riders

• Product management at Waymo vs software-only products

• The state of self-driving technology

• The importance of being a disruptor and why large companies need to disrupt more

• Underrated product management skills

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/product-lessons-from-waymo-shweta-shrivastava-waymo-amazon-cisco/#transcript

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Where to find Shweta Shriva

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shshrivastava/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Shweta’s background

(03:47) What Shweta and her team are responsible for at Waymo

(05:30) About the autonomous driving vehicle hardware, software, and simulation tools 

(08:14) Differences in working at Waymo vs. a more traditional software company

(11:02) How Waymo builds trust with riders and the difference between driver assist and fully autonomous

(13:57) An example of how Waymo builds trust with riders

(15:55) The commercial, operational, and system behavior metrics Waymo uses 

(20:38) What are L5 autonomous vehicles and why Shweta thinks L4 vehicles are good enough

(22:53) How to keep investors enthusiastic when it’s a long-term investment

(25:24) Building successful teams and successful products

(26:39) Determining what you’re not building, especially before product-market-fit

(27:49) Why large companies need to disrupt their own models 

(29:33) The most underrated product management skills

(33:07) Tips for getting promoted

(35:19) Where is Waymo and how to try it out

(36:46) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Waymo: https://waymo.com/

• Nauto: https://www.nauto.com/

• Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595

• Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986

• The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780

• Top Gun: Maverick on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Gun-Maverick-Tom-Cruise/dp/B0B18G8R9B

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by Wealthfront—Make smarter stock investments | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs | Ahrefs—Improve your website’s SEO for free

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Nikita Miller is a product leader, angel investor, and advisor. She has built and led product teams at companies ranging from early-stage startups to multinationals, and she is currently SVP of Product Management at The Knot Worldwide. Nikita is passionate about scaling product teams to support high-growth businesses and was a product leader at Trello and Atlassian for five years. In today’s podcast, we cover:

• Lessons from building and growing Trello

• Nikita’s roles and responsibilities framework

• How the PM landscape is changing

• Lessons about managing remote teams

• Tactics for driving urgency within teams

• Why working cross-culturally was such a formative experience

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Find the transcript and references at: ⁠https://www.lennyspodcast.com/driving-alignment-and-urgency-within-teams-work-life-balance-and-the-changing-pm-landscape-nikita-miller-the-knot-trello/#transcript

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Where to find Nikita Miller:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nikitadyer

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikitadyer/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Nikita’s background

(03:56) How Nikita helped Trello develop enterprise features 

(09:41) Trello vs. Jira

(10:28) Similarities and differences between building for users at The Knot vs. Trello

(15:02) Pro tips for Trello users

(15:41) Nikita’s roles and responsibilities framework

(21:10) Why scrum masters are disappearing and what shifts are happening on teams

(21:56) Why every team should have a data scientist embedded in it

(23:27) The proper cadence for the rules and responsibilities framework, and problems around execution

(25:27) Outcomes and output

(28:34) The importance of urgency, and how to cultivate a sense of urgency

(29:52) How to determine if your team is moving quickly enough

(31:03) Prioritization between big bets and optimizations

(31:29) Questions Nikita asks to understand her team’s speed 

(33:30) Changes in the field of product management

(36:42) Advice for people who want to get into product

(38:40) Why being a PM is hard, and thoughts on work-life balance

(43:03) How to manage remote teams and how to do successful, short, in-person meetups

(47:59) The importance of having overlapping work hours and onboarding in person

(49:09) The advantages of working in different cultures 

(52:58) The question Nikita finds most useful

(55:07) Lightning round

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

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Disclosure: I am a Wealthfront client and I have received non-cash compensation for the testimonial in this episode.

Brought to you by Amplitude—Build better products | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Ahrefs—Improve your website’s SEO for free

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Hila Qu is an Executive in Residence at Reforge as well as a renowned growth advisor, angel investor, and published author (her book about growth was named one of the top 10 business books of 2018 in China). Previously, she served as the Director of Growth at GitLab, where she implemented and scaled their PLG motion, and VP of Growth at Acorns, scaling them from 1 million to 5 million users. In today’s episode, we discuss:

• The importance of having both a product-led and a sales-led motion for companies of all sizes

• A step-by-step process for implementing PLG

• Common pitfalls of layering on PLG

• How to audit your existing funnel

• Conversion, activation, and retention tactics

• Structuring your growth organization from day one, and as it scales

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-adding-a-plg-motion-hila-qu-reforge-gitlab/#transcript

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Where to find Hila Qu:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/HilaQu

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilaqu/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Hila’s background

(03:26) The outcome of writing guest posts for Lenny’s Newsletter

(05:12) Why companies should have PLG and sales

(07:58) What PLG is and why it’s so popular

(09:41) Zoom, an example of a PLG company

(11:24) Common pitfalls in adding a PLG motion

(16:06) The spectrum of when PLG makes sense

(20:04) What you need to be successful in a product-led growth strategy

(24:52) The first step to adding a PLG motion

(30:11) What GitLab does and how the sales funnel and PLG funnel work there

(34:07) Mapping out the funnel

(35:29) Finding leverage and other next steps

(38:24) What an aha moment is and conducting an audit

(47:30) Activation and conversion 

(52:17) Why you should start with activation, and who is doing it well

(55:24) Retention, the messy part of the funnel

(1:00:34) How Hila made an impact on retention at Acorns

(1:03:03) The two buckets of data 

(1:04:56) Tools for implementing a PLG motion

(1:08:47) The importance of data 

(1:10:20) Tips to get started, and why you need to have good data first

(1:12:10) How to do a data audit

(1:15:04) Building a PLG team

(1:22:40) The core growth squad

(1:27:51) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Hila’s guest post on Lenny’s Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/five-steps-to-starting-your-plg-motion

• Ravi Mehta on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-your-product-strategy-stack-ravi-mehta-tinder-facebook-tripadvisor-outpace/

• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/

• GitLab: https://about.gitlab.com/

• Lauryn Isford on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/mastering-onboarding-lauryn-isford-head-of-growth-at-airtable/

• Acorns: https://signup.acorns.com/

• PostHog: https://posthog.com/

• Mixpanel: https://mixpanel.com/

• Pendo: https://go.pendo.io/

• Optimizely: https://www.optimizely.com/

• Eppo: https://www.geteppo.com/

• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/

• Clearbit: https://clearbit.com/

• ZoomInfo: https://www.zoominfo.com/

• Endgame: https://www.endgame.io/

• Pocus: https://www.pocus.com/

• Pace: https://www.paceapp.com/

• Toplyne: https://www.toplyne.io/

• Crystal Widjaja on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-scrappily-hire-for-measure-and-unlock-growth-crystal-widjaja-gojek-and-kumu/

• Redshift: https://aws.amazon.com/redshift/

• The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: A Guide to Wealth and Happiness: https://www.amazon.com/Almanack-Naval-Ravikant-Wealth-Happiness-ebook/dp/B08FF8MTM6

• How Women Rise: https://www.amazon.com/How-Women-Rise-Habits-Holding/dp/1847942253/

• 硅谷增长黑客实战笔记 (Hila’s best-selling book on growth): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BZC8L78?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_ND87BRFMB0CMWBEVB747

• The Wandering Earth II: https://wellgousa.com/films/wandering-earth-ii

• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032

• Lululemon yoga pants: https://shop.lululemon.com/c/women-pants/yoga/

• ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com/chat

• Someday: https://www.amazon.com/Someday-Alison-McGhee/dp/1416928111

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by Amplitude—Build better products | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Ahrefs—Improve your website's SEO for free

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Casey Winters is a longtime and legendary advisor and operator. He’s worked with companies like Airbnb, Faire, Canva, Whatnot, Thumbtack, Tinder, and Reddit and until recently was the Chief Product Officer at Eventbrite, where he managed the PM, design, research, and growth marketing teams. Before Eventbrite, he led growth and product teams at Pinterest and Grubhub. In today’s episode, we discuss what Casey calls the “zero interest rate phenomenon” product manager and how to avoid becoming one. He provides valuable insights on thinking outside popular frameworks, shipping products efficiently, and avoiding overreliance on user research. We explore the three types of network effects, how to leverage them, and how to break someone else’s network effect. Finally, Casey shares his contrarian approach to interviewing product managers and his thoughts on the future of PM roles with AI.

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey-winters-pinterest-eventbrite-airbnb-tinder-canva-reddit-grubhub/

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Where to find Casey Winters:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/onecaseman

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywinters/

• Blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Casey’s background

(03:36) What Casey is up to

(05:24) Why the CPO position is frequently short-lived

(07:26) What Casey learned in his role as CPO of Eventbrite

(10:15) The “zero interest rate phenomenon” product manager

(12:17) Advice for thinking outside common frameworks

(18:35) When to bring in research

(21:16) What Whatnot does

(21:59) Casey’s approach to interviewing PMs 

(23:29) Red flags in interview responses

(24:27) The future of product management with AI

(27:47) Founder intuition vs. team expertise

(33:33) How to influence founders

(37:17) Adding the delivery driver app at Grubhub

(40:00) Network effects

(43:10) Why Zillow is a sticky product

(44:05) How Grubhub’s network effect got taken over by DoorDash and Uber Eats

(51:47) Don’t underestimate the competition

(54:43) SaaS adding marketplace and vice versa

(01:02:30) Defining marketplaces

(1:03:34) What Substack is nailing

(1:05:43) Tips for B2C subscription startups

(1:13:15) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• Casey Winters on Lenny’s Podcast previously: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/

• Whatnot: https://www.whatnot.com/

• The 700-calorie breakfast you should eat if you want to live forever, according to futurist Ray Kurzweil: https://www.businessinsider.com/what-ray-kurzweil-eats-to-live-forever-2016-4

• The Way of the Gun on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/the-way-of-the-gun-0fc9590c-3f85-48ab-96e9-1da1b9695065

• Notion AI: https://www.notion.so/product/ai

• Zapier: https://zapier.com/

• Founder intuition vs. team expertise vs. customer expertise: https://caseyaccidental.com/founder-intuition-team-expertise/

• Erika Warren on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erika-warren/

• Alyssa Ravasio (Hipcamp) on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssa-ravasio-23114717/

• Marketplace supply strategy: comprehensive, exclusive, or curated: https://a16z.com/2021/03/31/marketplace-supply-strategy/

• Nassim Taleb on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nntaleb

• The Innovator’s Dilemma: The Revolutionary Book That Will Change the Way You Do Business: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244

• OpenTable: https://www.opentable.com/

• Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/

• Faire: https://www.faire.com/

• How to increase your retention: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-increase-your-retention-issue

• The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Process-Ongoing-Improvement/dp/0884271951

• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/r

• Profit from the Core: A Return to Growth in Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Profit-Core-Return-Growth-Turbulent/dp/1422131114/

• Party Down on Starz: https://www.starz.com/us/en/series/party-down/2011

• The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us

• Station Eleven on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GYZWoOQ6F9cLDCAEAAABP

• Kicking and Screaming on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70052286

• Raven by Kelela on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/06uhdSmIYrWRkdnAPjcRcT

• Optical Delusion by Orbital on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/2jQbFspnSh7erex6RDKQGJ

• Stakes Is High by De La Soul on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/3jlC2uhYNrhikZXLviEnpu

—

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs.

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Kevin Aluwi is the co-founder and former CEO of Gojek. With over 2.7 million drivers and over 3 billion orders completed, Gojek is the biggest startup in Indonesia and all of Southeast Asia. In today’s podcast, Kevin shares the story of how Gojek overcame endless obstacles—including being underfunded, being unable to send drivers payment, and the local motorcycle mafia coming after their drivers. We cover the importance of brand, the value of doing the hard things, how to be super-scrappy, and helpful tips on building a tech company outside of Silicon Valley.

Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/taxi-mafias-cash-vaults-and-100-mom-growth-the-story-behind-southeast-asias-biggest-startup-kevin-aluwi-gojek/#transcript

Where to find Kevin Aluwi:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/kaluwi

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaluwi/

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

Referenced:

• Gojek: https://www.gojek.com/en-id/

• WeChat: https://www.wechat.com/

• Sequoia: https://www.sequoiacap.com/

• eFishery: https://efishery.com/en/

• What You Do Is Who You Are: How to Create Your Business Culture: https://www.amazon.com/What-You-Do-Who-Are/dp/0062871331

• How Brands Grow: What Marketers Don’t Know: https://www.amazon.com/How-Brands-Grow-What-Marketers/dp/0195573560/

• The Menu on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/movies/the-menu

• Cyberpunk Edgerunners on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81054853

• Arc: https://arc.net/

• Steam Deck: https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeck

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Kevin’s background

(05:00) How Gojek got started and the current scale

(08:35) Some of the services that Gojek currently offers or has offered

(09:37) Kevin’s thoughts on super-apps

(15:36) The importance of brand

(23:08) How to create branding with consistency across copy and design

(26:53) Challenges Gojek had in the early days that required scrappiness

(33:03) Why Kevin doesn’t believe in moats as a durable solution, and the value of doing hard things

(37:30) How Gojek hired private security to keep their drivers safe

(39:38) The value of founders doing and understanding multiple roles within the company

(44:12) How Kevin’s failed finance career led him to take a bet on building tech in Indonesia

(47:30) Tips on building a tech company outside of Silicon Valley 

(52:09) What the market is like in Indonesia 

(55:42) What’s next for Kevin

(57:41) Lightning round

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].

Brought to you by AssemblyAI—Powerful AI models to transcribe and understand speech | Public—Invest in stocks, treasuries, crypto, and more | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

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Lulu Cheng Meservey was formerly head of comms at Substack (where I host my newsletter and podcast) and is currently the Executive Vice President of Corporate Affairs and Chief Communications Officer at Activision Blizzard. She also writes one of my favorite newsletters, “Flack,” where she shares tactical advice for company comms, PR, and messaging. In today’s episode, we dive deep into the world of PR and comms. We discuss why taking risks is crucial, how to gain attention as an underdog, and why it’s important to have a super-specific audience. Lulu outlines several frameworks I’d never heard of before, including a concentric circles framework for identifying your audience, the cultural erogenous zones, and even a physics-based framework for comms.

Find the transcript for this episode and all past episodes at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/episodes/. Today’s transcript will be live by 8 a.m. PT.

Where to find Lulu Cheng Meservey:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lulumeservey

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lulu-cheng-meservey/

• Newsletter: https://www.getflack.com/

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

Referenced:

• “Binders full of women”: Mitt Romney’s four words that alienated women voters: https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2012/oct/17/binders-full-of-women-romneys-four-words

• Bill Bishop’s newsletter on Substack: https://www.sinocism.com/

• Hamish McKenzie on Twitter: https://twitter.com/hamishmckenzie

• The Network State: How to Start a New Country: https://www.amazon.com/Network-State-How-Start-Country-ebook/dp/B09VPKZR3G

• How to increase virality: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/increasing-virality

• Ryan Petersen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/typesfast

• Brian Armstrong on Twitter: https://twitter.com/brian_armstrong

• Palmer Luckey on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PalmerLuckey

• Pirate Wires: https://www.piratewires.com/

• NYX: https://www.nyxcosmetics.com/

• Gates of Fire: An Epic Novel of the Battle of Thermopylae: https://www.amazon.com/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/055338368X

• The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us

• Notion: https://www.notion.so/

• Lex: https://lex.page/

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Lulu’s background

(04:36) What helps an idea spread

(06:17) Mitt Romney’s “binders full of women”

(07:19) Advice for coming up with contagious phrasing

(08:36) Lulu’s esoteric reference that left her Twitter followers confused

(11:08) The importance of taking risks, and Lulu’s thread on standing for free speech

(12:53) An example of another sticky phrase

(14:40) The cultural erogenous zones framework

(16:08) How Kamala Harris made people care about education

(17:29) How to get attention as the underdog

(20:25) How Substack used the concentric circles framework to spread information

(21:32) Understanding the layers in those concentric circles

(25:44) How to get started figuring out your concentric circles

(27:03) An example of aligning messaging with people’s values 

(28:19) Lulu’s mathematical formula framework for comms for a purpose

(28:54) A physics-based framework for comms

(35:56) How Balaji Srinivasan used the concentric circles approach with his book The Network State

(39:46) The importance of a super-specific audience

(41:12) Reasons your comms are failing

(42:40) Why you should focus on one direct communication channel at first

(46:58) Why not every founder needs to be on Twitter

(48:02) Who LinkedIn works better for

(49:23) Examples of messaging with a human voice and hopping on trends quickly

(51:11) Reasons for direct comms 

(53:52) How to get started setting up a direct channel

(56:09) Why consistent, good content is better than trying to go viral

(59:28) Lightning round

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].