That Hoarder: Overcome Compulsive Hoarding

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Today's episode is all about batching and hoarding. Have you ever started a task only to get sidetracked and end up feeling disheartened and unproductive? Well, you're not alone. In this episode, I explore the concept of batching tasks together and how it can help you overcome the distractions and actually get things done. Join me as we delve into the world of productivity strategies, context switching, and the positive benefits of batching tasks. Get ready to declutter your mind and your home and find the encouragement you need to keep going. Stay tuned for some practical tips and insights on how to make batching work for you. Let's get started!

• For people who easily get sidetracked and lose focus quickly
• Using technique to focus on tasks efficiently
• More focus leads to increased productivity and visible results
• Batch tasks for efficiency and effectiveness
• Batching tasks simplifies decision-making and improves efficiency
• Batching tasks helps with transitions and procrastination
• Create a schedule for regular batched tasks
• Batch based on area, category, or activity
• Feeling unaccomplished by distractions when trying to complete tasks
• Focus on one task at a time to accomplish more and see noticeable results, providing motivation and encouragement
• Allows for a fresh perspective on completed work and saving time and energy
• Batching tasks simplifies decision-making, reduces analysis paralysis, and allows for forward planning, increasing productivity
• Helps with transitions and initiating task
• Beneficial for dehoarding, depending on progress. Establishing a schedule for regular batched tasks may be helpfu
• Batch items based on area, category, or activity. Stay focused and redirect distractions by saying "No, I'm working on this for now."
• Explanation of context switching and its impact on focus and productivity
• More noticeable results at the end of a decluttering session
• Boost in motivation and encouragement
• Importance of visible progress in overcoming feelings of disheartenment
• Comparison between concentrated progress in one area vs. scattered progress throughout the space
• Difference between visible and hidden progress
• Encouragement to apply batching techniques to stay focused and improve effectiveness in organising efforts

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Today, Dr. Jan Eppingstall is here to shed light on the connection between executive function, executive dysfunction, and hoarding behaviour. We explore how executive function impacts our ability to organise and declutter our living spaces and uncover the challenges individuals face when it comes to decision-making, mental flexibility, and working memory. We'll also discuss strategies for improving executive function and overcoming the obstacles that hoarding behaviour presents.

• Depression and health conditions can impair focus
• Nervous shutdown and self-compassion during stress
• Trick yourself into starting
• Network atrophies when not engaged
• Issue with sticking to tasks due to desire for novelty
• Reducing food shops, using what's in cupboards
• Procrastination hinders progress, but changing behaviours helps
• Mental flexibility essential
• Flexible thinking in shopping, problem solving, creativity
• Executive dysfunction hinders organisation; hoarding makes it harder
• Lack of experience in decision-making, cutting corners
• Perspective and help are important when organising
• Lack of space hinders planning
• Executive functions affects losing things
• Fear of loss worsens clutter
• See-through boxes and labels
• Mindset affects executive function, self-care is crucial
• Many conditions cause brain fog and difficulty focusing
• Understanding our executive functions helps us manage stress, improve awareness, and leverage strengths
• Reflection can inform future behaviour
• Nervous system shuts down, could be triggered by dissociation
• Engaging in tasks helps people focus and enter a flow state
• Perfectionism = rigid thinking, efforts towards being more flexible
• Trying to organise a hoard is destined to fail
• Can we reassure ourselves when we put things away?
• Minimise visual distractions, motivation to improve surroundings
• Take care of your mind, believe in yourself, and prioritie self-care for better executive function
• Is difficulty organising due to executive function issues or the sheer quantity of items?
• Difficulty getting rid of things once they are brought into the home due to the endowment effect
• Suggestions for improving working memory through mental maths and storytelling memory games
• Identifying triggers and strategies for preventing or dealing with shutdowns
• Practicing self-compassion and reducing stress for better action-taking
• Introduction of the task positive network (TPN) and flow state during tasks
• Downsides of hyperfocus and its impact on cognitive attention
• Weakening or atrophy of the TPN due to lack of exercise
• How depression, autoimmune diseases, and long COVID can impact executive functioning
• Unique perception and organization of belongings for individuals on the autism spectrum
• Planning skills and lack of space as potential barriers

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Today, I'm delving into the world of excess and overstocked items. I have some insights on how to navigate the clutter of spares and backups that can often accumulate in our lives and explore the challenges of hoarding spares, the fear of running out, and the art of letting go. It's time to take action and make space for what truly matters. Let's dive in!

• Too many backups, no space for essentials
• Too many spares hinder finding things
• Hoarders stock up, but it's problematic
• Keeping spares, especially when on sale
• Overbuying and hoarding wastes time and money
• Allocating space reduces overstocking, prompts evaluation
• Consider cost, availability, and ease of replacement. Assess necessity based on these factors
• Evaluate spare items for necessary maintenance
• Risk and fear limit our daily lives
• Consider reasonable quantity and necessity, not excess
• We accumulate unnecessary backups, making it difficult to organize and discard unused items
• Keeping too many unnecessary items makes it hard to find what we really want
• Letting go takes faith but leads to easier access
• Buying in bulk is cheaper
• Overbuying and hoarding leads to an unmanageable situation, preventing you from enjoying life
• Fear of running out is understandable but excessive stockpiling is not helpful or cost-effective
• Dispose of obsolete tech and excess items, donate or discard thoughtfully
• Allocating a specific space for overstock might help control it
• Consider limiting the number of spares and keeping track of inventory
• Consider the cost and availability of replacing items. If easy and affordable, no spares may be needed. If costly or hard to find, consider quantity and storage
• Check if your spare items need maintenance. Don't keep duplicates if they don't work. Consider safety and cost when replacing items
• Balancing risk and spares in daily life, reassess as needed
• The waste feels horrible, but you can learn from it and make more conscious decisions about buying
• Don't beat yourself up, instead turn discomfort into determination to avoid future waste
• Think before buying unnecessary items
• Assess the importance and potential consequences of running out
• Balance the need for preparedness with space and cost
• Proportionality is key
• The concept of overstocking and hoarding spares
• Keeping a record of the quantity of spare items to alleviate anxiety about running out
• Difficulty of finding desired items among a clutter of unused items
• Taking Action to Get Out of Clutter
• Importance of taking action to declutter and organise
• Acknowledge fear of being without certain items, but encourage letting go of unused items to make space for what truly matters
• Donating unwanted items can make it easier to access needed items
• Availability of replacements locally or online
• Considerations like expiration dates and proper storage
• Fear of running out and hoarding as a response
• Balancing the benefits of buying in bulk with the negative impact on daily life and family dynamics
• Keeping old appliances as backups even if they are no longer functional
• Using discomfort as motivation to avoid overstocking and waste
• Reassessing judgments about spares over time as anxiety levels change
• Futility of hoarding obsolete tech
• Space, cost, and compatibility issues
• Reflect on own overstocking habits and take steps to overcome compulsive hoarding

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For the transcript for this episode, visit http://www.overcomecompulsivehoarding.co.uk 

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Jasmine Sleigh is a professional declutterer and has spent the past decade helping people to free up space. She focuses not only on physical belongings but also on the emotional and psychological aspects of decluttering. In today's episode, Jasmine likens her role to a dance, where she carefully navigates through uncertainties and potential triggers for her clients and stresses the importance of providing support and encouragement throughout the decluttering process.

We also discuss Jasmine's book, Being Owned: A Decade in Professional Decluttering, where she expands on the concepts discussed in this episode. Let's dive into the world of decluttering with Jasmine Sleigh.

• Facilitating crafts and donating unused items.
• Professional decluttering: a personal and people-centric approach
• Handling belongings requires adaptability and improvisation
• Sort out space, prioritise essentials, declutter
• Understanding lives through belongings; an intimate job
• Stuff has power, can be moved
• Keep belongings accessible for ease of use
• Helping people achieve their goals is the key
• Positive actions in a cost of living crisis
• Jasmine wanted to write a book about her experiences as a professional declutterer, focusing on the poignant stories of her clients and celebrating her achievements
• She also felt frustrated by people's misconceptions about the job
• The importance of using and sharing possessions, especially in the context of crafting and hobbies.
• Jasmine can only go as far as clients are willing to let her
• Training others has further shaped her understanding
• Emotional attachments and recent purchases may require more distance
• The power of belongings and the impact they can have
• Ensuring easy access and a comfortable living environment for individuals is the main priority
• Goal is to make people happier in their homes
• Using resources for good and the availability of second-hand items in a crisis
• Sorting through belongings and determining their importance in one's life narrative
• The Unpredictability of the Job
• Need for adaptability in dealing with unexpected situations
• Describing the job as a "dance" due to uncertainties and triggers
• Being present and flexible in the moment, avoiding over-preparation
• Ineffectiveness of threats and negative consequences
• The Process of Decluttering
• Recognising that there is no quick fix or magic solution
• Examples of finding forgotten items
• Belongings becoming overwhelming and causing a burden
• The ability to move and rearrange belongings to improve the situation
• Different levels of difficulty in letting go of different types of items
• Sorting out keepsakes at different life stages
• Importance of having hobbies and engaging in creative activities
• Creating a space to pursue hobbies and finish projects
• Passing on unused items for sustainability and resource usage
• Power dynamics surrounding objects
• Giving individuals agency to make choices about possessions
• Stories of reengagement and finding joy in personal belongings
• Being attuned to people and focused on their well-being
• Maturation and increased understanding after 10 years of working
• Importance of the home as a sanctuary for wellbeing

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In today's episode, we're diving into the topic of when you feel like giving up. We'll be exploring the struggles, frustrations, and moments of doubt that can arise during the journey of overcoming compulsive hoarding. We'll uncover strategies to stay motivated and find the strength to keep going. Join me as we navigate the highs and lows of this challenging process and discover the power of perseverance.

So, grab a cup of tea and press play!

For the transcript for this episode, visit http://www.overcomecompulsivehoarding.co.uk

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Reminder: Why was change important? Self-examine motivation for new things.

Stay present, take care of yourself, embrace failure.

Challenges and triumphs in a long journey and a big project.

Setting expectations based on order rather than timings is preferable for someone who finds it difficult to predict. Learn from experience and set realistic expectations. Consider the burden of letting others down if you communicate expectations to them.

Setting milestones helps celebrate small wins. Clearing the kitchen table can be a goal, leading to a sense of accomplishment and motivation. Having compassion for oneself is crucial.

A Facebook comment inspired compassion from children of hoarders, encouraging someone to not give up and be a hero for their kids.

Change up your habits, shift timing, remember why you started.

Remember why decluttering was important to you. Reflect on your motivation and discover new reasons, like enjoying extra space, treating yourself, or flexibility while working from home.

Taking breaks and finding inspiration from others helps prevent burnout during long-term projects. Look to successful people for motivation, even outside of your specific field.

Applying mindset to various areas of life, replacing unproductive habits, assessing and making adjustments, and the potential benefits of visualizing success.

Acknowledging slow progress is better than no progress

Feelings of frustration and impatience with the current situation

Be patient and work with circumstances

Mindful Approach to Avoid Feeling Overwhelmed

Being present in the moment instead of rushing to the next thing

Appreciating and being present in small tasks

Practicing mindfulness and avoiding constant engagement with everything

Importance of physical, mental, and emotional self-care

Maintaining motivation through scheduled and unscheduled breaks

Viewing failure as a learning experience, not a reason to give up

Importance of setting specific goals and milestones in decluttering

Celebrating accomplishments as motivation

Breaking tasks into manageable chunks to reduce overwhelm

Replacing rigidity with a more gentle and careful approach

Doing a bit, assessing, and making adjustments

Changing Environment and Finding Motivation

Changing environment or time of day to make decluttering feel new

Reflecting on initial motivation to stay motivated

Various sources of inspiration, including social media, podcasts, and books

Unrelated endeavours like trekking the Appalachian Mountains as a source of inspiration

Flexibility and Adaptability in Pursuit of Goals

Emphasizing the importance of flexibility and adaptability

Overcoming rigidity and perfectionism through adjustment and starting multiple times

Taking breaks and weekends off to prevent burnout

Failure as a Motivator and Opportunity

Understanding failure as a setback in life plans

Validating the feelings of discouragement and wanting to give up

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In this episode, we explore decision making and its connection to hoarding. I dive into neuroscience research, exploring the neural mechanisms of decision making in hoarding disorder, discover how individuals categorise their own possessions versus those of others, and how this impacts their ability to make decisions. I talk ways to improve decision making skills. From flipping a coin to considering our values, setting priorities, and seeking advice, I explore practical techniques that can help anyone struggling with indecisiveness. Along the way, I tackle the fear of uncertainty and how it can hinder decision making. I delve into the different decision making styles that researchers have identified and how understanding these styles can help.

For the transcript for this episode, visit http://www.overcomecompulsivehoarding.co.uk

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• Hoarding OCD patients struggle with decision making.
• Differences in decision making for hoarders.
• Anticipating regret
• Test small decisions
• Gather information, set time limits for decisions
• Accepting uncertainty
• Toss a coin, keep perspective, ask advice.
• Consider long-term consequences, stick to decisions.
• Start small; gain confidence in decision-making.
• Learning from past decisions improves future choices.
• Hoarders report anxiety and procrastination in decision making.
• Lack of self-trust skews decision-making
• Hoarding disorder linked to impulsive decisions and self-reliance.
• Differences in categorising own items compared to others'
• Writing down thoughts can clarify complexity and solve problems
• Fear of mistakes leads to decision avoidance.
• Hoarders anticipate regret
• Ask more than "what if"
• Perspective, flexibility, seek advice.
• Stick to decisions and avoid second-guessing or agonising over them.
• Psychology Today: 35,000 choices made daily
• Decisions can be overwhelming
• The butterfly effect and the impact of seemingly insignificant decisions
• Strategies for Decision Making in Hoarding
• Imaginary Person Technique
• Aligning decisions with values to prioritise what is truly important
• How values can guide decision-making in hoarding situations
• Neural Mechanisms of Decision Making in Hoarding
• Study involving brain scans and paper items
• Tossing a coin to make decisions and considering feelings about the result
• Setting priorities, asking "what if" questions
• Being open to different perspectives
• Tolerating uncertainty
• Understanding Decision Making Styles
• No definitive set of decision making styles
• Cultivating Compassion and Making Ethical Choices
• Cultivating self-compassion
• Making compassionate choices for a better quality of life
• Practical Tips for Decision Making in Hoarding
• Starting with small, easy decisions and gradually progressing to more significant ones
• Challenging oneself to try different options and gain decision-making skills
• Learning from past decisions to inform future ones and identify helpful strategies
• Considering long-term consequences rather than focusing solely on immediate ones
• Stepping out of immediate emotions
• Sticking to decisions and avoiding overanalysing or second-guessing
• Difficulty making decisions among patients with hoarding disorder and OCD
• Characteristics of hoarding disorder, including excessive indecisiveness and avoidance
• Hoarding disorder's association with procrastination, indecisiveness, and decision-related fears

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In today's episode, we'll be delving into things that look like hoarding but aren't. Joining me is the incredible Dr. Jan Eppingstall, a specialist in hoarding disorder.

For the transcript for this episode, visit http://www.overcomecompulsivehoarding.co.uk

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We explore the how to determine if someone has hoarding tendencies, shedding light on hoarding and its connections to other mental health conditions, such as OCD and OCPD. We'll discuss the criteria for these disorders and how they relate to hoarding behaviors. But hoarding is just the tip of the iceberg. We'll also explore the relationship between hoarding, autism, ADHD, and depression, uncovering the common symptoms and challenges in these overlapping conditions.

So, join us as we discuss things that may look like hoarding but aren't.

Understanding the cause of hoarding behaviours

OCD and OCPD are mental disorders characterized by anxiety and rigid personality traits. Hoarding was associated with OCPD

Overlap of symptoms

Depression makes daily tasks exhausting and meaningless

Autism and ADHD: understanding and terminology

Often mask to fit in

Recognise sensory needs, respect neurodivergence, ask questions

Rejection sensitive dysphoria, impulsiveness, and addiction in ADHD

Understanding the causes of hoarding behaviours is important

OCD and OCPD are mental disorders. OCD causes anxiety and impairs functioning. OCPD is a personality disorder with rigid traits

Hoarding was considered a subtype of OCPD

People with OCPD may not see their behaviours as problematic and may exhaust themselves trying to meet unrealistic standards

Do individuals feel responsible for the welfare of objects, are they emotionally attached to them, do they experience distress from clutter or the act of saving?

A potential opposite extreme of compulsive minimalism

Feeling exhausted and worthless, maintaining a tidy house becomes unimportant. A depression nest forms

Hoarding often starts at a young age. Time and untreated depression can worsen it

Bipolar disorder

Increased understanding and awareness leading to more assessments.

Women are often overlooked

Understanding and accommodating individuals with neurodivergence is important

Sensory needs and routines may vary

ADHD is highly heritable but can also be influenced by environmental stressors and trauma

Variable attention stimulus trait

Creating your own options and not being afraid of failure in self-help

ADHD, depression, and hoarding often co-occur

Other conditions like OCD, anxiety, bipolar disorder, social anxiety, bulimia, binge eating, gambling, and personality disorders can be linked to hoarding

Treatment is challenging but not impossible

Definitions and criteria for hoarding tendencies

Compulsive spartanism

Differences and similarities between OCD and OCPD

Criteria for OCPD based on Freud

Hoarding originally considered a subtype of OCPD

Labels and understanding underlying needs

Focus on purpose rather than the diagnosis

Unrealistic standards and exhaustion from trying to meet them

Sensitive dysphoria and euphoria

Feeling overwhelmed and exhausted in daily life

Accepting help without distress or shame

Depression nests

Relationship between ADHD, depression, and hoarding

OCD, generalized anxiety, bipolar disorder, social anxiety, eating disorders, addiction, and personality disorders

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I speak to Tracy McCubbin, an expert in decluttering, organising, and overcoming the emotional attachment to our belongings. With years of hands-on experience and a deep understanding of clutter, Tracy helps people reclaim their spaces. Tracy shares invaluable insights into the psychology behind stuff and the challenges that arise when inherited items become emotional burdens. She challenges the notion that objects hold inherent meaning and encourages listeners to question the attachment they have to their possessions. Tracy also provides practical advice on how to approach decluttering and organising. She dispels the myth of overnight transformations often portrayed on social media, reminding us that real progress takes time and effort. She shares anecdotes, including the story of the infamous painting of dogs playing poker and its unexpected journey to a new home. Join us as we explore clutter blocks through six items of mine,

For the transcript for this episode, visit http://www.overcomecompulsivehoarding.co.uk

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Introduction to the clutter blocks and their origin

Birthed from hands-on work with people and their experiences with hoarding disorder

The struggle of inheriting items from deceased family members

Difficulty in letting go of things due to sentimental attachment or financial value

Objects hold no inherent meaning, we assign meaning to them

Example of the speaker's wedding dress and societal pressure to hold onto sentimental items

The changing importance of objects over time

Acquisition of things becoming easier, questioning the need to hold onto them

Tackling decluttering and organizing separately

Not expecting immediate results

Unrealistic expectations created by social media

Working at your own pace

Time and energy limitations due to work and family

The initial chaos before improvement during the decluttering process

Hiring professionals for cleaning services if deep cleaning is not enjoyable

Selling or giving away unwanted items to avoid clutter

Celebrating progress by hiring a cleaning company and taking a break

Resisting pressure to do things one doesn't enjoy

Letting go of items and finding them in the hands of those who need them

Separating decluttering, organizing, and cleaning as separate tasks

Avoiding overwhelm and making the process more manageable

Replacing reminders of painful memories with positive ones

Not feeling obligated to keep crafts made by others

A client with a collection of birdhouses made by their father

Reflecting on the concept of regret and the things that are never thought about again

Choosing cash over a sale purse

Declutter, organize, and clean separately for success

Decluttering takes time and patience, but it's worth it

Feeling obliged to keep handmade crafts made by others

The meaning we attach to objects

Beautiful gift that's not my style

Dogs playing poker painting given new home

Father hoards baby strollers, never gives them away

Disaster relief donations often miss the mark

Hiring help for tasks you dislike

We make mistakes, let's learn and move on

Decluttering takes time and effort; it may get worse before it gets better

Psychological attachment to objects and challenges the belief that everything must be kept

Focus on good memories

Putting a time limit on completing tasks

Donate money, not random items

It is okay to not enjoy certain tasks and celebrate hiring help

We all make mistakes, but holding on to them is unnecessary

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For the transcript for this episode, visit http://www.overcomecompulsivehoarding.co.uk

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Today, I dive into the importance of setting up systems to make dehoarding easier and less resistant. We'll discuss how examining the structure of our lives can help us determine what can be done to make the decluttering process more manageable. Plus, we'll explore the concept of choosing realistic timings that fit with our individual lifestyles for successful decluttering. We'll also explore the idea that the path of least resistance is often seen as negative, implying that someone isn't trying hard enough. In the realm of dealing with hoarding, however, the path of least resistance can be a gift. I'll explain how taking this approach doesn't mean avoiding challenges altogether, but rather making the overwhelming task of decluttering more manageable. Join me as I navigate the intricate world of compulsive hoarding, exploring the strategies and mindsets that can help us overcome this challenge. Get ready to uncover the path of least resistance.

• Choosing the simplest option to overcome challenges
• Uncertainty, struggle, progress in dealing with tasks
• Create a system to enable donating items
• Overcome barriers and get things out
• Simplify decisions, prioritise, and start somewhere
• Guidelines and formulas
• Confidence and small steps
• Choose the easiest option to start moving. Dealing with difficult challenges can be overwhelming. No shame in taking the simplest path
• Uncertainty improved by experience and research
• Need to be intentional to prevent worsening
• Think about what stops you and create a system to enable change
• Have a bag ready for charity donations
• Start somewhere, any room or item, and adjust approach as needed.
• Examining the structure of your life to facilitate decluttering
• The negative perception of the path of least resistance
• Acknowledgment of the importance of embracing challenges, but hoarding is already a significant one
• Importance of making progress and having mental energy
• Being more selective in future donation choices
• Prioritising getting rid of items over ensuring they leave the house perfectly
• Practical examples of following the path of least resistance in donating items
• The challenge of determining where to start decluttering
• Importance of thinking about structures that hinder decluttering
• The value of creating systems or structures for ease of decluttering
• The importance of following the path of least resistance to overcome difficult challenges
• Barriers to getting rid of items, such as the need for perfection
• Considering the easiest path to get items out of the house without throwing them away
• Encouragement to pay attention to personal objections to getting rid of items
• Research and intentionality as key factors in being neat and tidy
• How being intentional prevents worsening and improves the situation
• The benefits of considering the path of least resistance in making deliberate choices
• Choosing what feels good to enhance productivity
• The burden of donating items from a hoarded home due to the scale of possessions
• The struggle of perfectionism in choosing where to donate
• Considerations when deciding where to donate items
• Suggestions for starting decluttering in specific areas of the home
• The possibility of becoming overwhelmed and unable to make progress
• Comparison of the structure of a river to the structure of one's life

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In this episode, we will be tackling the really gross and icky bits of dehoarding. It's not the most glamorous topic, but it's an essential part of the journey to a clutter-free life. We'll be discussing everything from dealing with unpleasant smells to handling sticky or disgusting substances that can accumulate over time. I've got some practical tips and strategies to help you navigate these challenges.

• Dealing with gross things is important, but don't beat yourself up about it
• Take responsibility, not blame, use it to motivate improvement
• Presence of mould or goo in home is harmful physically, mentally, emotionally. Use gloves and a face mask to protect against anything gross or moldy. Use a grabber if needed
• Adding essential oil drops to a face mask or using Vick's VapoRub improves smell.
• Learn from experience, tackle issues one by one, prevent future problems: avoid bulk buying, store properly
• The importance of addressing the "gross and icky" bits of dehoarding
• Learning from unpleasant experiences and taking pride in overcoming them
• Tackling issues or challenges one by one in a methodical manner
• Taking proactive measures to prevent similar situations from arising again
• Practical tips for dealing with sticky or gross substances
• Addressing them individually until the whole house is clean
• Being cautious with bulk food purchases and storing perishable items properly
• Using bags for cleaning purposes is a logical use, not a waste
• Spraying antibacterial spray after cleaning to ensure cleanliness
• The importance of not avoiding unpleasant tasks
• Facing the situation head-on because it won't go away on its own
• Being realistic about what needs to be addressed
• Quick resolution of tasks that have been avoided for a long time
• The importance of ventilation to prevent mould and fungus spores from spreading
• The need for Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) when dealing with harmful substances
• Taking responsibility without blaming oneself
• Using experiences as motivation to improve hoarding habits
• Promoting a proactive attitude towards personal growth and improvement
• Overcoming the fear and worries associated with gross or unpleasant tasks
• Using gloves, face masks, and grabber tools to avoid touching or inhaling harmful substances
• Prioritising health and wellbeing when removing gross or unidentifiable items
• The consequences of failure to clean up grossness, including contamination and more waste
• Accepting that some things may not be savable and may need to be discarded

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